Beginner theory G7/A and A7/C#

[cappers]

Quick theory question please.

On our sheets for Honeysuckle Rose (tenor Gmaj) the solo section chords include G7/A and A7/C#.

I've checked and G7/A is G dominant seventh chord with A as the bass note = GBDF A.
A7/C# is A dominant seventh chord with C# as the bass note = C# AEG.

In G7/A the bass note in G7/A is last, why is it the first in A7/C# and not AC#EGC#?

Thanks in advance (keep it simple please 😉)

(Trying to flick a fly off my screen and it's a blackbat! )

 

[Colin the Bear]

Try this. 🎾

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Are you talking about the notes written on the staff?
What is an A, to a G7 chord?
What is a C# to an A7 chord?

 

[Colin the Bear]

For now, ignore slash chords. They're for the bass player.

 

[turf3]

Quick theory question please.

On our sheets for Honeysuckle Rose (tenor Gmaj) the solo section chords include G7/A and A7/C#.

I've checked and G7/A is G dominant seventh chord with A as the bass note = GBDF A.
A7/C# is A dominant seventh chord with C# as the bass note = C# AEG.

In G7/A the bass note in G7/A is last, why is it the first in A7/C# and not AC#EGC#?

Thanks in advance...

What you're talking about is VOICING. The general intent is what you said - to have that non-chord or non-root tone as the bass note. But going up from the bass note, the position of the rest of the notes of the chord (if all of them are even present) is an open choice. If it's written in detail, the piano and guitar players will play what's on the page; if it's just chord symbols, they'll choose the voicing of those chords according to what's easily fingered, what's easily fingered coming from and going to the previous chords, how the voicing sounds by itself, and how it sounds in context of the entire passage.

That said, I'm looking at a lead sheet for Honeysuckle Rose and I don't see the F7/G (concert, your G7/A) written anywhere. Where exactly in the tune are these? I think an arranger has done a little substituting. Where I see the G7/B (concert, your A7/C#) is in "You're My Su-Gar", second half of the bridge.
So, converting back to tenor key:

Words: "you're my su gar"
Melody notes (tenor key): A B C C#
Chords: A7 (bass note A), Em7/B (bass note B), Cdim7 (bass note C), A7/C# (bass note C#) - so the bass note played (hopefully) by piano player's left hand pinky, is exactly the same note as the melody note.

I suppose an arranger may have substituted (tenor key) a G7/A for the first chord under the melody note A, the word "You're" - but I just tried it on the piano and it sounds kinda bad.

But I may be overinterpreting and the mystery G7/A in the tenor part (F7/G concert) may be somewhere else entirely.

But at any rate, the lead sheet shows clearly one way that slash chords are used, to outline a bass line that the arranger or composer specifically wants played there.

 

[mizmar]

G7/A for the first chord under the melody note A, the word "You're" - but I just tried it on the piano and it sounds kinda bad.

In my head I was wondering about that - you're either putting the A right next to B or missing out the 3rd of the chord altogether? The song doesn't seem that hip to me.

 

[turf3]

In my head I was wondering about that - you're either putting the A right next to B or missing out the 3rd of the chord altogether? The song doesn't seem that hip to me.

I'm just saying that substituting a G7/A for an A7 sounds bad.

 

[JayeNM]

A7/C# is pretty typical...just telling piano/guit to voice the chord with the 3rd as lowest note. It tells bass player to play the 3rd in that chord.

So you said "in G7/A the bass note is last - GBDF A". But it isn't.
The Bass player would hit that note first, the pianist or guit player would voice the chord with an A as lowest note in the chord.

The G7/A thang ...I agree with above respondents....I looked at my two different arrangements of the tune, I cannot find, regardless of key of tune, where that exists.

It is telling rhythm to play the 2 of the G7 chord...which is a bit strange (bass is my primary instrument, I usually do not come across a 7th chord slashed with the 2nd) unless, as noted, the melody is doing that. More commonly slashed with 7th or 3rd below, occasionally 5th.

Could be the arranger needed a notation to agree with the melody note so they just did that - a bit of a clunky, shoe-horned solution, however. If the melody is a 2 of the chord, using a dom7th chord there doesn't seem the best chord choice to me. Putting the G7 over a melody note of A maybe not the best choice of chord, again unless intention was to create a tension or something...but this is a very "inside" jazz tune, so why do that ?

I would tend to agree, whoever arranged your chart was perhaps implementing some idea they had on a chord voicing...although without seeing your chart it is hard for me to say whether I agree with that particular notation....

Wanna post the chart so we can see it ? JUst for kicks.

But you (OP) asked what it means...so that's what slash chords mean.....bottom note is the bass note of voicing - and as a beginning, beginning-intermediate soloist on a lead instrument I, too would just ignore the note below the slash and adhere to the overall chord.

 

[turf3]

For that matter, the bridge is two four bar cells, and you can play it just fine with simple chords, avoiding that chromatic walkup altogether:

G7 | G7 | C | C | A7 | A7 | D | D | and back to Am7 to kick off the last eight of the tune.

 

[turf3]

Ahhh! I think I know what's happening.

In tenor key, the chords of the first two bars of the bridge could be rendered:

G7 | G7 Vanilla
G7, Dm7/A| C#dim7/Bb, G7/B Chromatic (melody notes are G, A, Bb, B)
G7, G7/A | C#dim7/Bb, G7/B This arranger's version

So that's where the G7/A comes in, I bet - in the first two bars of the bridge.

The later A7/C# comes in, in the same walkup four bars later and a whole step higher, in the sixth bar of the bridge:

A7 | A7 Vanilla
A7, Em7/B| D#dim7/C, A7/C# Chromatic (melody notes are A, B, C, C#)

I don't have time right now to check how the G7/A sounds where I've put it in bold, but maybe someone else will, and let us know.

Frankly as a saxophone player I'd probably run with the vanilla chords rather than the chromatic stuff, most of the time.

 

[cappers]

OK. Thank you for the comments. This is the solo lead sheet. I don't where it originated.

Are you talking about the notes written on the staff?
What is an A, to a G7 chord?
What is a C# to an A7 chord?

G7 - GBDF - A is the 9th.
A7 - AC#EG - C# is the 3rd.
If thats what you're asking?

But you (OP) asked what it means...so that's what slash chords mean.....bottom note is the bass note of voicing - and as a beginning, beginning-intermediate soloist on a lead instrument I, too would just ignore the note below the slash and adhere to the overall chord.

Cheers. I got the bass bit, just querying the differences in the chord structures.
I've learnt to keep it simple so will ignore slash chords for now.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

"G7 - GBDF - A is the 9th.
A7 - AC#EG - C# is the 3rd.
If thats what you're asking?"

YES
9th and major 2nd
Is C# a major 3rd or minor 3rd? 😜

For guitar, slash chords, advise to play that note in the bass, the rest, as previously stated, depends on the size
of your fretting hand. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

Turn up the volume to just below distortion.
Amazing that he does not have facial distortions, or tightened butt cheeks, like Rockers, yet can play. 🙄

Posted as a backing track. 😍

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojBYW3ycVTE

 

[lydian]

They're just trying to show the ascending bass line. G7/A isn't intended to be a G9 with the 9th in the bass, but a G7 over an ascending bass line where A (and C# in the last chord) are just passing notes. As a horn player, you can ignore what's after the slash. Those are for the rhythm section.

I don't know where you looked up these voicings, but the note after the slash is always the lowest note. You can voice the rest of the chord however you want. Your piano player might even voice it as a 13, double the 9th and leave out the root and 5th, a typical modern jazz piano voicing for a dominant chord. Your guitarist might just play the shell - root, 3rd and 7th. You just play whatever sounds good to you.

The melody line in this tune is actually pretty modern, often using the 13th. It also uses a lot of enclosures, which consist of upper and lower neighbor tones. The upper note is the next diatonic not and the lower a half step below. Here's a good explanation and some exercises.

View: https://youtu.be/EDgagUk0qLs


I have this very tune in the set on my gig this weekend. I'll play the bass part on bass sax and take a solo on clarinet where I'll typically aim for 3rds and 7ths to outline the harmony, and play arpeggios, enclosures and approach notes for good voice leading. I'll also use elements of the melody and riff off of that.

In your band, the piano and guitar seem like very experienced players. I'd listen to what they do and copy licks of theirs that you like and make them your own.

 

[Pete Effamy]

A7/C# is pretty typical...just telling piano/guit to voice the chord with the 3rd as lowest note. It tells bass player to play the 3rd in that chord.

This isn’t my understanding. My understanding is what Colin said: the bass player is instructed to play those notes as the roots of the chord. Any other rhythm section player is free to voice the chord as sounds best (unless there is no bass player and the piano is covering that).

Further, the guitarist always has to be very mindful of his voicings as it’s very easy to clash with the piano. In this case, “full” chords will seldom be played by the guitarist. I think guitarists call them “shell” voicings - maybe 3-note voicings that can be used for several chords.

 

[Pete Effamy]

They're just trying to show the ascending bass line. G7/A isn't intended to be a G9 with the 9th in the bass, but a G7 over an ascending bass line where A (and C# in the last chord) are just passing notes. As a horn player, you can ignore what's after the slash. Those are for the rhythm section.

I don't know where you looked up these voicings, but the note after the slash is always the lowest note. You can voice the rest of the chord however you want. Your piano player might even voice it as a 13, double the 9th and leave out the root and 5th, a typical modern jazz piano voicing for a dominant chord. Your guitarist might just play the shell - root, 3rd and 7th. You just play whatever sounds good to you.

The melody line in this tune is actually pretty modern, often using the 13th. It also uses a lot of enclosure, which consist of upper and lower neighbor tones. The upper note is the next diatonic not and the lower a half step below. Here's a good explanation and some exercises.

View: https://youtu.be/EDgagUk0qLs


I have this very tune in the set on my gig this weekend. I'll play the bass part on bass sax and take a solo on clarinet where I'll typically aim for 3rds and 7ths to outline the harmony, and play arpeggios, enclosures and approach notes for good voice leading. I'll also use elements of the melody and riff off of that.

In your band, the piano and guitar seem like very experienced players. I'd listen to what they do and copy licks of theirs that you like and make them your own.

You wrote along my lines as I was collecting my takeaway…

 

[lydian]

Along the lines of simplifying chord changes, I do indeed ignore the slashes. I've got enough to think about. But I also simplify other complex chords. All I really think about is major, minor or dominant. If I see F#7b9#11/G#, I think F#7. Yes those extensions and alterations are important. But rather than attempt to do a math problem instantaneously, which never works, I rely on hearing the extra stuff while focusing on just the basics - dominant 7 in this case.

I might also simply think "altered" when I see a lot of extensions, so I know I can alter the 9th, 5th, 11th and 13th without specifically trying to build a huge list of note choices on the fly. I just keep in mind that they're altered.

This simplification works for horn players like us. Of course the poor pianist has to deal with all the details. But they've memorized the shapes, so they don't have to do any math problems either.

 

[cappers]

Is C# a major 3rd or minor 3rd? 😜

@PiccoloPirate Tease 😉

In the context of A7 AC#EG it's a minor third - 3 semitones

 

[Pete Thomas]

@PiccoloPirate Tease 😉

In the context of A7 AC#EG it's a minor third - 3 semitones

In fact it’s a major 3rd in A7, 4 semitones.

 

[JSL]

It is telling rhythm to play the 2 of the G7 chord...which is a bit strange (bass is my primary instrument

Maybe just a technicality, but the A is the 9th of the G7 chord. I agree it's a bit strange to put it as the bass note since I always thing of it as on 'top' of the G7 chord. But I guess it could be placed anywhere in a voicing. As a horn player, I don't worry about those notes below the slash in a slash chord.

 

[turf3]

Maybe just a technicality, but the A is the 9th of the G7 chord. I agree it's a bit strange to put it as the bass note since I always thing of it as on 'top' of the G7 chord. But I guess it could be placed anywhere in a voicing. As a horn player, I don't worry about those notes below the slash in a slash chord.

It's done because the melody is ascending and the intention is for the rhythm section to play the same ascending line, a couple octaves below. Extremely common.