G# pad not closing

[Rogerb]

Hi
We had a minor earth tremor here in Spain the other day .. hardly noticeable, but just enough to make my alto fall off its stand..
I dicovered that the only apparent damage was to the G# key,(bent away frm the pinky cluster) and the G#pad which now doesn't close properly.
I managed to bend the key back into place(rather too easily for my liking, it's ver soft metal!), but cannot figger-out what keeps the pad closed, so that I can check if the spring has been 'displaced'.
Any advice/ suggestions?
I 'd love to take it to Stephen for a check and service, but from Spain, that is muy complicado y caro!
(v. complicated and expensive).
Thanks
Roger

 

[griff136]

Hi Roger,

sorry to hear about the accident with your sax. G# pad may not be closing for a number of different reasons but seeing as it was presumably before the fall .


Check firstly that the G# pinky key works by pressing it and letting it return.
now check that the G# pad key is not binding - hold done the G# pinky key and press the G# pad key down and let it return.
If they both operate then it is unlikely that there is binding on either key.
If the G# pinky key returns to its home position and there is no "play" (gap) between operating the low C# or low B and the G# pinky key, then its unlikely a spring issue.
If you look at the arm that protrudes from the G# pinky key this links the pinky key to the G#pad key. check there is some material under the arm - if it isn't missing then its unlikely to be a linkage arm issue.

You have probably more likely bent the G# key back a little too far.

If you look at the G# pinky key there should be 2 "tabs" that protrude downwards from back the oval touchpiece and these usually have a silencing material either cork or felt on them and operate the G# when either the low C# or low B are operated. When at rest these should just touch- as opposed to rest against -the keys infront of them. These could be bent and therefore stop the arm ( the long bit that links the G# pinky key with the G# pad key) from closing the G# pad key fully. You could try gently bending the G# pinky key back slightly, or using some small pliers ( preferably non marring or lined with cork/felt cardboard even and bend back the little tabs.


If you need any pictures or any further help just shout


Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Griff

 

[Rogerb]

Many thanks for the swift reply , Griff ..
I'll work through your points below:

Hi Roger,

sorry to hear about the accident with your sax. G# pad may not be closing for a number of different reasons but seeing as it was presumably before the fall . Yes it was


Check firstly that the G# pinky key works by pressing it and letting it return. It DOES
now check that the G# pad key is not binding - hold done the G# pinky key and press the G# pad key down and let it return.
If they both operate then it is unlikely that there is binding on either key. Not sure what you mean by "G# KEY", as opposed to Pinky Key ...is it the one just below the pinky, in the 'cluster'?? That one goes up/down freely with the pinky depressed ... no apparent 'binding'
If the G# pinky key returns to its home position and there is no "play" (gap) between operating the low C# or low B and the G# pinky key, then its unlikely a spring issue. Yes, that seems OK
If you look at the arm that protrudes from the G# pinky key this links the pinky key to the G#pad key. check there is some material under the arm - if it isn't missing then its unlikely to be a linkage arm issue.

You have probably more likely bent the G# key back a little too far.
Actually it was the pinky key, with its long curved arm which had bent upwards (i.e away from the cluster, and in line with the body) away from the cluster, revealing the two 'ears', which I hadn't seen before. That was how I noticed it was bent! I bent it back into the curve of the top keys in the cluster, but making sure it didn't 'foul' any of them.

If you look at the G# pinky key there should be 2 "tabs" that protrude downwards from back the oval touchpiece and these usually have a silencing material either cork or felt on them and operate the G# when either the low C# or low B are operated YES. When at rest these should just touch- as opposed to rest against -the keys infront of them. These could be bent and therefore stop the arm ( the long bit that links the G# pinky key with the G# pad key) from closing the G# pad key fully. You could try gently bending the G# pinky key back slightly, or using some small pliers ( preferably non marring or lined with cork/felt cardboard even and bend back the little tabs.
They seem to be in the right positions, except the outer tab(furthest from the body) is bent down a bit moreand there is a small (1.5-ish mm)gap between the cork and the G# key. Is that too much? (I can't think it has bent in the fall, as it is impossible to move without pliers.
Anyway, I don't THINK that would solve the is the problem, which is that the pad is not closed in the 'at rest' position, but is slightly open and 'floppy'
This suggests, to me that there is a spring which normally holds it closed, but which has become 'displaced' .... the one I THINK is responsible is buried deep under the rods, etc, but I will look at locating and re-setting that, unless you advise other wise!
THANKS;,MATE!! Watch this space!

If you need any pictures or any further help just shout


Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Griff

 

[jbtsax]

I agree completely with Griff's excellent diagnosis and summary. Another way I like to diagnose the problem is to push up on the G# touchpiece (pinky key). If that closes the G# pad cup it means that the B and C# touchpieces are preventing the G# touchpiece from raising enough to allow its arm to close the G# pad cup. Rather than bending the "tabs", another solution would be to press the G# touchpiece down all the way, and with your other hand carefully press down on the lever that extends to close the G# pad cup. Just a little bit should do the trick. This should allow a bit of movement (lost motion) between when the low B or C# touchpieces are pressed and they contact the tabs of the G# touch. If you happen to go a bit too far and there is too much "lost motion", simply bend the lever up a bit using a popsicle stick or tongue depressor and check again.

 

[griff136]

Hi Again Roger,

sorry to hear about the accident with your sax. G# pad may not be closing for a number of different reasons but seeing as it was presumably before the fall . Yes it was


Check firstly that the G# pinky key works by pressing it and letting it return. It DOES Goodo
now check that the G# pad key is not binding - hold done the G# pinky key and press the G# pad key down and let it return.
If they both operate then it is unlikely that there is binding on either key. Not sure what you mean by "G# KEY", as opposed to Pinky Key ...is it the one just below the pinky, in the 'cluster'?? That one goes up/down freely with the pinky depressed ... no apparent 'binding' The G# key is the one with the G# pad attached to it.
If the G# pinky key returns to its home position and there is no "play" (gap) between operating the low C# or low B and the G# pinky key, then its unlikely a spring issue. Yes, that seems OK Goodo
If you look at the arm that protrudes from the G# pinky key this links the pinky key to the G#pad key. check there is some material under the arm - if it isn't missing then its unlikely to be a linkage arm issue.

You have probably more likely bent the G# key back a little too far. (Sorry I meant the G# pinky key!)
Actually it was the pinky key, with its long curved arm which had bent upwards (i.e away from the cluster, and in line with the body) away from the cluster, revealing the two 'ears', which I hadn't seen before. That was how I noticed it was bent! I bent it back into the curve of the top keys in the cluster, but making sure it didn't 'foul' any of them. Goodo

If you look at the G# pinky key there should be 2 "tabs" that protrude downwards from back the oval touchpiece and these usually have a silencing material either cork or felt on them and operate the G# when either the low C# or low B are operatedYES. When at rest these should just touch- as opposed to rest against -the keys infront of them. These could be bent and therefore stop the arm ( the long bit that links the G# pinky key with the G# pad key) from closing the G# pad key fully. You could try gently bending the G# pinky key back slightly, or using some small pliers ( preferably non marring or lined with cork/felt cardboard even and bend back the little tabs.
They seem to be in the right positions, except the outer tab(furthest from the body) is bent down a bit moreand there is a small (1.5-ish mm)gap between the cork and the G# key. Is that too much? (I can't think it has bent in the fall, as it is impossible to move without pliers. These didnt need to have been bent in the fall, my point is that if you bent the G# pinky key back too far these tabs will stop the arm from closing the G# pad key fully.
Anyway, I don't THINK that would solve the is the problem, which is that the pad is not closed in the 'at rest' position, but is slightly open and 'floppy' It may do assuming the linkage arm has not been bent during the fall or whilst benind the pinky spatula back.
This suggests, to me that there is a spring which normally holds it closed, but which has become 'displaced' .... the one I THINK is responsible is buried deep under the rods, etc, but I will look at locating and re-setting that, unless you advise other wise!
The G# is operated by two separate keys both with opposing springs - one spring keeps the G# pad closed shut ( this is the spring on the G# pinky key usually found on the right hand side of the key as your playing it) and the one that lifts the G# pad open which is attached to the G# pad key ( this key spring is lighter than the G# pinky key spring) - if both keys are operating under their springs, and there is no binding on the keys then its got to be a linkage issue IMO.

Q Does the G# pad key close fully if you push the G# pinky key forward towards the bell?
If so its either the tab behind the Low B key ( you've already mentioned the C# tab isn't touching.)
or the linkage arm has been been upwards slightly, which can be rectified as JBTSax has described.
A real quick way to see if this is the case is to place a piece of material say a piece of cardboard underneath the linkage arm and see if the pad fully closes.

THANKS;,MATE!! Watch this space!

You're welome
If you need any pictures or any further help just shout


Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Griff

 

[Rogerb]

Hi Again Roger,

sorry to hear about the accident with your sax. G# pad may not be closing for a number of different reasons but seeing as it was presumably before the fall . Yes it was


Check firstly that the G# pinky key works by pressing it and letting it return. It DOES Goodo
now check that the G# pad key is not binding - hold done the G# pinky key and press the G# pad key down and let it return.
If they both operate then it is unlikely that there is binding on either key. Not sure what you mean by "G# KEY", as opposed to Pinky Key ...is it the one just below the pinky, in the 'cluster'?? That one goes up/down freely with the pinky depressed ... no apparent 'binding' The G# key is the one with the G# pad attached to it.OK
If the G# pinky key returns to its home position and there is no "play" (gap) between operating the low C# or low B and the G# pinky key, then its unlikely a spring issue. Yes, that seems OK Goodo
If you look at the arm that protrudes from the G# pinky key this links the pinky key to the G#pad key. check there is some material under the arm - if it isn't missing then its unlikely to be a linkage arm issue.

You have probably more likely bent the G# key back a little too far. (Sorry I meant the G# pinky key!)
Actually it was the pinky key, with its long curved arm which had bent upwards (i.e away from the cluster, and in line with the body) away from the cluster, revealing the two 'ears', which I hadn't seen before. That was how I noticed it was bent! I bent it back into the curve of the top keys in the cluster, but making sure it didn't 'foul' any of them. Goodo

If you look at the G# pinky key there should be 2 "tabs" that protrude downwards from back the oval touchpiece and these usually have a silencing material either cork or felt on them and operate the G# when either the low C# or low B are operatedYES. When at rest these should just touch- as opposed to rest against -the keys infront of them. These could be bent and therefore stop the arm ( the long bit that links the G# pinky key with the G# pad key) from closing the G# pad key fully. You could try gently bending the G# pinky key back slightly, or using some small pliers ( preferably non marring or lined with cork/felt cardboard even and bend back the little tabs.
They seem to be in the right positions, except the outer tab(furthest from the body) is bent down a bit moreand there is a small (1.5-ish mm)gap between the cork and the G# key. Is that too much? (I can't think it has bent in the fall, as it is impossible to move without pliers. These didnt need to have been bent in the fall, my point is that if you bent the G# pinky key back too far these tabs will stop the arm from closing the G# pad key fully.
Anyway, I don't THINK that would solve the is the problem, which is that the pad is not closed in the 'at rest' position, but is slightly open and 'floppy' It may do assuming the linkage arm has not been bent during the fall or whilst benind the pinky spatula back.
This suggests, to me that there is a spring which normally holds it closed, but which has become 'displaced' .... the one I THINK is responsible is buried deep under the rods, etc, but I will look at locating and re-setting that, unless you advise other wise!
The G# is operated by two separate keys both with opposing springs - one spring keeps the G# pad closed shut ( this is the spring on the G# pinky key usually found on the right hand side of the key as your playing it) and the one that lifts the G# pad open which is attached to the G# pad key ( this key spring is lighter than the G# pinky key spring) Yes, found those...the 'opener' seems very weak ... i was worried that it was not functioning - if both keys are operating under their springs, and there is no binding on the keys then its got to be a linkage issue IMO.(I think you are correct, although there has been no movement or losening that I can see ....see my comment below about the 'adjustable closer' on the pad pivot rod))

Q Does the G# pad key close fully if you push the G# pinky key forward towards the bell? Nothing I do seems to cause the pad to close 'positively' ...it's just flopping open/shut
If so its either the tab behind the Low B key ( you've already mentioned the C# tab isn't touching.)
or the linkage arm has been been upwards slightly, which can be rectified as JBTSax has described.
A real quick way to see if this is the case is to place a piece of material say a piece of cardboard underneath the linkage arm and see if the pad fully closes. No, it doesn't, and the reason SEEMS to be that there is an excessive gap between the 'closing lever', and the small, adjustable link on which it should (I think) but doesn't, operate ... this link is attached to the pad pivot, and has a 'peg' in a curved slot, presumably to adjust how close it gets to the 'closing lever' ....are you with me?
Obviously I am reluctant to slacken screws which have been tightened by Stephen, but it APPEARS to need that adjustable peg raised up closer to the lever from the pinky key???
(Just still a bit concerned about the 'opening spring' seeming so weak, but suspect it's caused by too much 'slack' in the linkage?)


THANKS;,MATE!! Watch this space! MORE thanks! It's all a bit much for one who has a mind confused by the intricacies of a clothes-peg

You're welome
If you need any pictures or any further help just shout


Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Griff

 

[Rogerb]

I agree completely with Griff's excellent diagnosis and summary. Another way I like to diagnose the problem is to push up on the G# touchpiece (pinky key). If that closes the G# pad cup it means that the B and C# touchpieces are preventing the G# touchpiece from raising enough to allow its arm to close the G# pad cup. Rather than bending the "tabs", another solution would be to press the G# touchpiece down all the way, and with your other hand carefully press down on the lever that extends to close the G# pad cup. Just a little bit should do the trick. This should allow a bit of movement (lost motion) between when the low B or C# touchpieces are pressed and they contact the tabs of the G# touch. If you happen to go a bit too far and there is too much "lost motion", simply bend the lever up a bit using a popsicle stick or tongue depressor and check again.

Many thanks to you,also Jbt, for taking the trouble to explain.....I don't think that lever is very 'bendable' on my sax, but it does, as I say to Griff have an adjuster.attached to the pad pivot.

 

[Rogerb]

Apologies to anyone who finds the Technicolor annoying ...just trying to distinguish between Qs and As !!
All you guys (and girls) are so helpful.

 

[kernewegor]

No, the technicolour is very helpful for the reason you state. Keep us posted on progress!

 

[jbtsax]

Just an observation. If the G# key was easy to bend back in place, the G# lever should be easy to bend as well since they are made of the same type of brass.

 

[griff136]

Hi Again,

So basically the gap between the linkage arm and the regulating mechanism is too big. If you can't bend the linkage arm down then try holding the linkage arm and bending the G# pinky key back a little so that there is a clear gap between the two tabs - both on the low C# and the low B. Once the G# pinky key is moved back so that the tabs are not in contact with their respective keys ( low C# and low B), the Linkage arm should then touch the regulating mechanism lug on the G# pad key, a the further forward the G# pinky key can move, thus the further closer the linkage arm will be to the Regulating lug.

Unless the regulating screw and lug on the arm of the G# pad key is loose, it's highly unlikely that this has shifted position unless of course the arm on which it was mounted has been pushed down. Therefore there should be no need to adjust it as the problem lies elsewhere. If this mechanism has been bent down then there would likely be some binding between the hinge tube on the G# pad key and it's screw rod (axle) .

On some saxes, on the cylindrical lug that the arm from the G# pinky key pushes against, there is a nylon/plastic/ silicone bushing like this:

If yours is fitted with one and it is missing then that's the problem.

 

[Rogerb]

Just an observation. If the G# key was easy to bend back in place, the G# lever should be easy to bend as well since they are made of the same type of brass.

Point taken and they certainly look the same metal, as one would, think, expect....however the lever is considerably wider, and straight, while the pinky lever is much longer, narrower and a sort of 'S' shape, which would account for the apparent difference in rigidity.
("Sorry, Granny...that's how you suck 'em!". 😉 )

 

[Rogerb]

Hi Again,

So basically the gap between the linkage arm and the regulating mechanism is too big.So it appears. If you can't bend the linkage arm down Impossible without excessive force then try holding the linkage arm and bending the G# pinky key back a little so that there is a clear gap between the two tabs - both on the low C# and the low B. Once the G# pinky key is moved back so that the tabs are not in contact with their respective keys ( low C# and low B), the Linkage arm should then touch the regulating mechanism lug on the G# pad key, a the further forward the G# pinky key can move, thus the further closer the linkage arm will be to the Regulating lug.This seems to have solved it, although the G# pad doesn't open very 'positively' when the pinky key is depressed it does open (helped by air-pressure?), and closes when the key is released!!! Yippeee ...I can at least play it (as well as I ever could!), even though it probably needs some expert 'tweaking' in due course.

Unless the regulating screw and lug on the arm of the G# pad key is loose, it's highly unlikely that this has shifted position unless of course the arm on which it was mounted has been pushed down. Therefore there should be no need to adjust it as the problem lies elsewhere. AGREED! If this mechanism has been bent down then there would likely be some binding between the hinge tube on the G# pad key and it's screw rod (axle) .It doesn't appear so.

On some saxes, on the cylindrical lug that the arm from the G# pinky key pushes against, there is a nylon/plastic/ silicone bushing like this:
View attachment 2449 View attachment 2450
If yours is fitted with one and it is missing then that's the problem.

Yes, my sax ( a 'one-off prototype', we think, of what became the Bauhaus Walstein M2 ...no serial number!) has this and the bushing is in place.

I can't thank you enough for this, Griff (and jbt) for your knowledge and patience! RESULT!

 

[griff136]

You're welcome Roger 🙂