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Funny-looking cork sickles in lower Mk VI tone holes

SopJob

Member
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Stuttgart region, Germany
Hi,

I've been offered what I consider a shabby-looking Mk VI soprano. I've never bought a vintage horn before, and I never believed in these old rain pipes until I blew this instrument. The sound is awesome, and it is in tune over the entire tonal range. Technically, it's been overhauled as far as I can see: new pads and felts, tone hole rims even, cups in line, action easy-going.

So I'm very inclined to buy, but these strange cork sickles inside the lower C, B, and Bb tone holes strike me as odd. Any idea what they are? Have they been fitted to fx a tuning issue? Here's a picture:

DSCF1178.JPG


Another question: The dealer asks some 2800 pounds. Would you go for it, or is this too high? I added two more photos. This here, in my opinion, shows the worst instance of corrosion around the upper pillar of the octave key.


dscf1170-jpg.2745
DSCF1171.JPG


One more question: Would you go for a relaquer?


Thanks in advance for your advice.

Frank.
 

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Nick Wyver

noisy
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Tuning crescents. That's why it plays in tune.

My Yanag S6 (Mk VI copy) has one in the G hole that I put in about 20 years ago.

Only you know whether you'd spend that on it. I like the sound of Mk VI sopranos and I'd be tempted. Fortunately I can't spend that much on anything (apart from a new bathroom, apparently) at the moment. I've got 3 sops anyway. It's probably enough.
 

SaxterLoka

Member
Messages
127
if you buy it please do not re lacquer the horn.

value will drop considerably. tone will change no doubt.

original lacquered good vintage horns are getting harder to find.

the value will go up if it is original.

I sold mine to as rich collector for about 4000 pounds 7000 us$. I'm am playing an old Conn Chu 1929 (LOW PITCHED) and love it. Sounds nothing like the MKvi. more lyrical maybe to try and describe the sound. Jan Garbereck plays and old conn chu on many of his recordings.

The price of this Mkvi is not cheap not expensive. If you absolutely love it then the horn is priceless.

And also the old Conns, Martins and Bueschers are amazing.

Check out the price difference also. here is a couple on ebay now. Good luck.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...620?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41877af56c
 

jbtsax

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Tuning a Saxophone With Crescents

In the past 90 days on Ebay U.S. the high paid for a lacquer Mk VI Soprano was $6,000 (£3680). The low was $2450 (£1503) and the average was $3581 (£2197). You might be able to talk the seller down because of the cosmetic condition, but that price seems to be within the range of values over here in the U.S.
 
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ProfJames

Elementary member
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Forget your Conns! Yuo can't beat an original 1929 Martin Master "Typewriter"!!!! >:):sax:
 

Colin the Bear

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Burnley bb9 9dn
Fascinating article on tuning. I may have a crack at the sharp palm notes on the baritone. It's tiring and frustrating pulling them down. I can't believe I've never come across this before after reading so many threads and articles on intonation problems.

@SopJob. I wouldn't re lacquer any saxophone that plays well and sounds great. The strip down, chemical treatment and rebuild may alter the fundamental character and sound. When it becomes unplayable and it's time for a full refit maybe consider it then.
 
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kevgermany

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Fascinating article on tuning. I may have a crack at the sharp palm notes on the baritone. It's tiring and frustrating pulling them down. I can't believe I've never come across this before after reading so many threads and articles on intonation problems.

Two thoughts
Try pulling the mouthpiece out a touch - it has a much bigger effect at the top than it does at the bottom
Maybe lower the palm key heights. You'll find that as you close the key slowly the note will get flatter before it drops down to the next one.
 

Colin the Bear

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Burnley bb9 9dn
Two thoughts
Try pulling the mouthpiece out a touch - it has a much bigger effect at the top than it does at the bottom
Maybe lower the palm key heights. You'll find that as you close the key slowly the note will get flatter before it drops down to the next one.


Thanks but I've tried all that. these crescents seem like the way to go. I'm a semitone sharp on F3. It's handy when playing in sharp keys. I play it like swanee whistle at the top. It's odd how you hear things. I knew it wasn't right at the top but for ages I thought it was flat. I was surprised when I checked it against a tuner.
 

SaxterLoka

Member
Messages
127
@SopJob. I wouldn't re lacquer any saxophone that plays well and sounds great. The strip down, chemical treatment and rebuild may alter the fundamental character and sound. When it becomes unplayable and it's time for a full refit maybe consider it then.

chemical treatment a lot of the time is an acid bath(mostly just vinegar) it wont do any thing harmful to the sax what so ever. it just helps to takes the lacquer off.

the problem with the re-lacquering as I'm sure we all know is the buffing proccess that takes away the brass. from the buffing the the brass gets thinner unfortunately. freaks me out just thinking about it. erhhh
 

SaxterLoka

Member
Messages
127
brass doesn't need lacquer over it(or any finish for that matter).

its just a visually pleasing finish in some mind's eye.

horns that have no finish over the brass play just fine.

when fully overhauling horns many players ask their techs to de-lacquer the horn in the acid bath (vinegar) process.

gives that appealing vintage vibe.

whether it free s the sound up who knows.

some players think it does.

mmmm.......
 

jbtsax

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When "lowering" a tonehole by adding a crescent or some other means the formula given in the acoustics literature is that increasing the distance of the top of the tonehole from the acoustical top of the instrument (apex of the missing cone) 1% lowers the pitch approximately 10 cents.

I've crunched some quick numbers using the wavelength of high F# on a bari (A=440) and to effect a 50 cent change would take moving the tonehole about 20mm and that is only a quarter step. It might work better to experiment and see if using an odd fingering will produce more accurate pitches that the regular fingerings.
 
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SaxterLoka

Member
Messages
127
When "lowering" a tonehole by adding a crescent or some other means the formula given in the acoustics literature is that increasing the distance of the top of the tonehole from the acoustical top of the instrument (apex of the missing cone) 1% lowers the pitch approximately 10 cents.

I've crunched some quick numbers using the wavelength of high F# on a bari (A=440) and to effect a 50 cent change would take moving the tonehole about 20mm and that is only a quarter step. It might work better to experiment and see if using an odd fingering will produce more accurate pitches that the regular fingerings.

just dropping the position of the angel that the mp goes in your mouth( lower your neck strap, it might take some getting use to but you may be surprised that the hole horn is more in tune. maybe more mp in the mouth also can help. its all an experiment.) could help also
 

Colin the Bear

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,308
Locality
Burnley bb9 9dn
When "lowering" a tonehole by adding a crescent or some other means the formula given in the acoustics literature is that increasing the distance of the top of the tonehole from the acoustical top of the instrument (apex of the missing cone) 1% lowers the pitch approximately 10 cents.

I've crunched some quick numbers using the wavelength of high F# on a bari (A=440) and to effect a 50 cent change would take moving the tonehole about 20mm and that is only a quarter step. It might work better to experiment and see if using an odd fingering will produce more accurate pitches that the regular fingerings.


Maan! It was too good to be true. The ups and downs of this forum are tearing me apart lol. You cant put 20mm of crescent on a 15mm tone hole lol

I've had this baritone for over 30 years. I can play it in tune but it takes a little concentration and anticipation. I slip and slide on the palm notes and lip it in. Great when it works. Poker face when it doesn't.
 

jbtsax

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Maan! It was too good to be true. The ups and downs of this forum are tearing me apart lol. You cant put 20mm of crescent on a 15mm tone hole lol

I've had this baritone for over 30 years. I can play it in tune but it takes a little concentration and anticipation. I slip and slide on the palm notes and lip it in. Great when it works. Poker face when it doesn't.

Now you've given me a puzzle to solve. I love these kinds of challenges. What is the make of bari that you play, and what mouthpiece are you using with it? You might also check the pitches of the palm key fingerings without the octave key when they sound an octave lower. This will give some idea about how much the octave vent sharpens the notes. I don't have a bari at the present time to experiment with different fingerings, but I do these on my alto a lot to bring some of the high notes down to pitch so I don't need to lip as far.
 

Colin the Bear

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It's an old weltklang. I play it with a Selmer S80 C* Vandoren classic blue 4. I'm off to check the tuning without the octave key
 
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