Saxophones FOURTH sax in 2 months - BUT have I paid too much this time!?

[DavidUK]

You may recall my thread: http://cafesaxophone.com/showthread.php?9478-Buffet-Crampon-BC8401-matt-Alto-Anyone-know-it

Well, the reason I was asking is that soon after my wife bought me the Jupiter for Christmas, and I'd done some GAS research on t'internet, it was the Buffet 400 series in matt finish that looked on paper (or screen) to be a great buy. But £850 new was too steep for me. However, a couple of weeks ago I came across a 2nd hand one which I have now managed to purchase, at a distance (always dangerous!). The seller told me it was in excellent condition with no marks or tarnishing. It arrived this morning.

See photos: http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/slideshow/24311168

The seller bought it from Prozone in Jan 2010 where it had been a demo model, hence my questioning her about condition. As you can see, it has a "rash" all over, and not just in the engraving which I understand is a problem with all saxes engraved after being lacquered. Perhaps the previous owner bought it in the same condition, thinking the rash was part of the vintage look? I think it has been stored a while as it has that musty smell to it, and that's what may have caused the freckles.

I took it to my sax tech this morning when I collected my Vito and he said it was very well made, airtight, played very nicely and there was absolutely nothing needing fettling. Good going if it has been stored.

I had a play, up against the 60 year old just serviced Vito, Yamaha YAS-275, and Jericho J6 (still on loan) and the Buffet surpassed them all with ease. it's just so easy to play well, taking away any bum notes or slight mis-keying I'd experienced with any of the others.

So.... bearing in mind I could send it back to the seller on a PayPal claim and get my money back as it's been misdescribed, should I do that? Or should I accept that any sax will deteriorate over time and because this already has some tarnishing I don't have to be so worried about any marks appearing as I would be with a pristine new one?

Bearing in mind Paul here paid £700 for a new one, what do you think I should have paid for this used one in its present condition? i.e. what's it worth? Love the sound, love the feel, not loving the look! What would YOU have paid, especially if you have the same model?

Whilst at my sax tech, he showed me an old Selmer in a far worse cosmetic state, and a 2 year old TJ "Raw" tenor which was going green in places (but then it's supposed to!). My Vito is also worn but it's allowed to be at its age. Should a three year old sax have a doubly "vintage" look?

Thanks for any comments or suggestions. I need to act fast to notify the seller if I'm going to send it back. Or I could ask for a partial refund I guess?

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[Bigtwin]

it's just so easy to play well, taking away any bum notes or slight mis-keying I'd experienced with any of the others.

Love the sound, love the feel,

I could ask for a partial refund I guess?

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I think these are the relevant parts. If you don't get one, forget it. You'll keep it years, so average out the "overpaid" element over time and it's irrelevant.

Just my 2p. Or 4p to you....

 

[TomMapfumo]

I would personally have no problem accepting the sax. The rash reminded me of my first Soprano sax - a Rampone & Cazzani, where the gold plating had begun to wear, my having kept it in its case for a few months, probably having not dried it thoroughly before putting it away.

If you are unhappy about the finish and it was not brought to your attention then a reduction might be appropriate in the circumstances. Glad you are pleased with the sound - they are awesome saxes!

 

[rudjarl]

Thanks for any comments or suggestions. I need to act fast to notify the seller if I'm going to send it back. Or I could ask for a partial refund I guess?

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I could not find out what you paid for it. And even if I had it would hardly matter. I paid approx. £1200 for a new one up here in the frozen wasteland they call Norway. If you paid less than £700 for it I'd say you keep it and play the darn thing till it wont blow no more...

 

[Jazzaferri]

Te question that popped into my mind....are you playing to look good or to sound good.....not meaning to be cheeky...both are okit's not my role to judge either.

if it plays really well and sounds the way you want it to....then you have to determine what your priorities are.

i have played brand new saxes at considerable more than the price point that you are talking about that have not played well nor sounded all that great to me.

 

[TomMapfumo]

The cost was about £500 as far as I can remember.

 

[DavidUK]

Te question that popped into my mind....are you playing to look good or to sound good.....not meaning to be cheeky...both are okit's not my role to judge either.

if it plays really well and sounds the way you want it to....then you have to determine what your priorities are.

i have played brand new saxes at considerable more than the price point that you are talking about that have not played well nor sounded all that great to me.

I DO like shiny, but shiny won't last long until I mark it. My Vito is already marked so no worries there - I wouldn't know if I'd put a new mark on it! I guess my real problem is expectation. The seller said it was perfect. Would I have paid what I paid for it if she'd sent me the photos I've now taken? I doubt it. My aim was to try it against the Vito for a few weeks and keep the one I preferred (as I have done with the YAS-275, JAS-567, and Jericho J6, all now overshadowed (just, against the J6) by the Vito for sound).

That trial period now needs to be just today, and already I prefer the Buffet, not purely for sound but for ease of keying - that's no doubt due to its 60 year age advantage!

I'll tell you all what I paid for it in a little while, after some more suggestions from you all as to what that should have been!?

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[DavidUK]

The cost was about £500 as far as I can remember.

Ah...OK Tom, forgot I'd told you that a week or so ago.
Well the final price was... £420 delivered. It was on ebay and she wanted £500 as a BIN when I messaged her, but I told her that was too steep and then played the waiting game as it was badly listed. £400 was the reserve, plus £20 postage.

Ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vintage-f...%2B2zN3%2B%2BZ%2Boc0M%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

She told me via ebay messaging it was in excellent, unmarked condition with no tarnishing.

If you think £420 is OK, I still think she should make a partial refund for her misdescription. She paid £525 in Jan 2010 so it's not as it she's lost £400 from new, only £125 (plus ebay fees of course).

Even a notional refund would make me feel better. Or am I being petty?

I did ask Paul's £700 retailer and Jones, Bristol, what they could do on a new one and the best (since the price rise) is £830.

 

[Bigtwin]

£420! Just count yourself lucky on a good deal and get on any enjoy playing it!

 

[TomMapfumo]

£420 is a bargain! I would buy it as back up to my current BC A400 at that price. Even the £830 new price is excellent! I understand about a partial refund, on principle. I would communicate this unhappiness to her and suggest that she might offer a reduction in price out of fairness, and see what she offers.

Other than that, don't look a gift horse in the mouth - a superb sax for only £420 is good fortune indeed!
Kind regards
Tom

 

[Di in France]

Hi, I think you should just keep it, you got a bargain. If you don't want it, you can sell it to me and I'll give you your money back!

 

[jonf]

An alto sax, one of the many higher quality far Eastern models, plays well but with a fair bit of corrosion damage. I'd say £400 is about right. Not a bargain to my eyes, but not a rip off either.

I did see on one of the photos a hint of corrosion around the tone hole. I'd want to keep an eye on that, and the nature of the corrosion suggest to me it won't have the longevity of a Yamaha or Yanagisawa. However, with any sax, the main test is, does it play well? You've already answered that - it does, so surely that makes it good for you.

 

[DavidUK]

I must say my YAS-275 at 9 years old does look as though it's brand new, but it leaves me a little cold.

I've now sent a polite request to the Buffet seller to suggest a solution to my unhappiness over the cosmetic condition.
Keep you posted.

:shrug:

 

[sushidushi]

That seems like the perfect way to approach it - by asking the seller to suggest what might be done, given that it was misrepresented. Good luck!

 

[allansto]

david
From what im reading in your replies im thinking you should keep it but maybe ask for a discount for the corrosion.
then
I would get myself a dremil and buffing compound and buff that corosion right off ......very carefully
That way youll have a great sax and it will look reasonable too.
Regards
Allansto.

 

[Paul]

Hi David ,i think i was very luck to get my BC400 at the price i paid. I have noticed that generally the prices are in excess of £1000
and they are still rising. I think what you paid seems fair as it plays well but no harm in trying to get a discount. As more players become aware of this saxophone it's popularity will increase and they may even become sought after.
I hope you enjoy your new sax
Paul

 

[DavidUK]

david
From what im reading in your replies im thinking you should keep it but maybe ask for a discount for the corrosion.
then
I would get myself a dremil and buffing compound and buff that corosion right off ......very carefully
That way youll have a great sax and it will look reasonable too.
Regards
Allansto.

I'm sure there's lacquer over the whole sax and thus over the corrosion so I don't think that would work. It might end up looking worse?

The seller has responded in a vicious manner saying the sax is a "gem" and also "I cannot believe the marks are tarnishing. I have had 2 babies in the short time it has sat in my cupboard." When I spoke to Tim Barrett at Buffet this morning, having sent him a link to the photos, the first thing he said was that it looked as though it may have been stored for some time.

I am composing my reply.

 

[DavidUK]

Hi David ,i think i was very luck to get my BC400 at the price i paid. I have noticed that generally the prices are in excess of £1000
and they are still rising. I think what you paid seems fair as it plays well but no harm in trying to get a discount. As more players become aware of this saxophone it's popularity will increase and they may even become sought after.
I hope you enjoy your new sax
Paul

Yes, Tim at Buffet was saying he thinks they're underpriced. He also mentioned the new Senzo will be out very soon with a price tag of around £2,500. How on earth can it be three times better than the 400 I asked. "Wait until you try one" was his reply.
Oh gawd... more expense on the horizon!

 

[Ivan]

"I cannot believe the marks are tarnishing. I have had 2 babies in the short time it has sat in my cupboard."

Thus the sax has been stored for a minimum of 18 months though 18 months would mean a) a zero turnaround time for conceiving child no.2 and that child no.2 has only just been born

You could enquire as to the age of her oldest child, add nine months to that and you'll be a bit closer to the actual storage time

Did she not open the case to look at the sax before selling?

 

[DavidUK]

Thus the sax has been stored for a minimum of 18 months though 18 months would mean a) a zero turnaround time for conceiving child no.2 and that child no.2 has only just been born

You could enquire as to the age of her oldest child, add nine months to that and you'll be a bit closer to the actual storage time

Did she not open the case to look at the sax before selling?

Before buying I asked her if she'd checked it over recently and she snapped back "Of course I have checked it. I took photo's of it to put on here.!"