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Firearm laws (posts moved from Hug Your Children thread)

Pete Thomas

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I have moved posts from the Hug Your Children thread. This thread is for discussing gun control (nicely), the other one for quiet thoughts, tributes, prayers as was the intention of Luluna when she started it.
 

jbtsax

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My heartfelt sympathies go to the families involved, i cannot even begin to imagine how it would feel to lose a child in those circumstances........ please America wake up
I agree entirely. The homocide rate using firearms in the U.S. is a hundred times greater that it is in the UK per 100,000 population. It is both saddening and frustrating that more isn't being done to address the problem.
 

Wade Cornell

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Re: Hug your children - now.

This act is insane. You can't ban insanity. The solution, if there is one, will not be a cliche or anything simple.

It's not an American phenomenon. It's happening all over the world.

How many children died elsewhere today?

Our hearts may never mend.
Sorry, don't agree. Most civilised countries have policies that make it difficult for crazy people to buy guns and massacre their innocents. The justifications/rationalizations that are used to block this are itself insanity.
 

Wade Cornell

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Re: Hug your children - now.

This is not the time or place to discuss this and I will refrain from responding in a public forum at this time.
Well, I think you brought it up in response to several others who also recognize this as an American problem that is mostly not shared by the rest of the civilised world. Yes, there are crazy people everywhere, but you don't need to make it easy for them to do harm to others. Is there a justification for this that outweighs the rights of others to life? Most of the world says emphatically NO. It would be good to eventually see people there gain the momentum to override lobbyists who prevent this obviously needed change.
 

Pete Thomas

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Re: Hug your children - now.

As I said, this discussion should be OK but let's keep it civil and calm.
 

Tenor Viol

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Re: Hug your children - now.

It's a terribly sad time and it is incredibly difficult for those of us not a part of US culture to understand why access to firearms is not more rigorously controlled. The Americans I've met through work don't understand it either. It's difficult for outsiders such as a Brit like me (and a Scouser at that!) to comment on other cultures and mores.

Historically, the fledgling US needed militias as there was no standing army to protect the state (mostly from us Brits...). Once a standing army was established, the laws should have been changed to reflect the change of status.

There was an interesting discussion about changing the US constitution on BBC Radio 4 this morning in which it was said that just 2% of people could prevent a change from being effected to the constitution (as I understand it, all states would have to ratify it individually before it would become operative)

We tightly control the sale of alcohol, cigarettes, driving of cars...

Very difficult to understand, for me at least.
 

Colin the Bear

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Re: Hug your children - now.

Historically we have no gun culture in the UK though this is changing, and yet we remember Hungerford and the sad story recently in Cumbria and the other massacre in Dunblane.

Wasn't it last year that a similar sort of thing happened in Norway. A country with one of the strictest gun control laws in the world.

There was an incident in France in the news not too long ago.

These are just a few that spring to mind without any googling. All considered civilised countries with strict gun controls.


Changing the Law only affects Law abiding citizens. The criminally insane have no regard for rules and conventions and will circumvent them.

I can't see what you were disagreeing with Wade.

This act is not insane?

The solution is simple?

It is an American phenomenon?

It doesn't happen anywhere else in the world?

No other children have died today from gunshot wounds?

Our hearts will mend?

There are trouble spots all over the world where anarchy reigns and murderous psychopaths lead groups of various sizes from government troops to sects, militias and factions against unarmed civilians.

There have been several high profile cases on trial for war crimes including genocide and ethnic cleansing in Europe recently.

Didn't that schoolgirl get shot in the head in Pakistan or was it Afghanistan for going to school?

I heard a campaigner for the American pro gun lobby on the radio putting forward the theory that the adults who were shot were unarmed and if they had been armed the perpetrator wouldn't have dared do what he did. He has a point.

If the solution was simple it would have been sorted by now. It's been going on a long time. Didn't the Boomtown Rats sing about not liking Mondays.
 

jbtsax

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Re: Hug your children - now.

I did not start a thread titled "Firearms Laws" and ask that the moderator who started this thread with this title remove my name from it.
 

Jazzaferri

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Re: Hug your children - now.

Michael Moore the filmmaker made an intereting observation that Canada has high levels of firearm ownership, just under a third of the population, but a fraction of the homicides per 100,000 of the USA.

He commented that in his opinion it wasnt the lax gun legislation, although that made it easier and likely in some cases the consequences worse, bfut it was a cultural thing. Memory is a bit foggy, but he felt it was partly the fact that Americans were very good at killing (2/3 of the states have the death penalty) and partly that Americans live in fear.

not sure if it is that clearcut but I do beleive it is way more complex than having easy access to guns.
 

trimmy

One day i will...
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Re: Hug your children - now.

I don't believe there will be a change in the 'constitutional right' for the American public to own a gun, in my lifetime, i hope i'm wrong but i doubt it.
Americans are obsessed with owning guns, the numbers are scarey 89 guns per 100 population !! Supposedly making it 270 million firearms, that's just not right. Also if they wish to own a gun to protect themselves (which they say is their right) why does it have to be a semi automatic ?
President Obama is trying to make the right noises, but lets see how loud he shouts !

American citizens comment on BBC news " It's harder to own a dog than to own a gun " say's it all
 

trimmy

One day i will...
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Re: Hug your children - now.

Removed post
 
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Wade Cornell

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Re: Hug your children - now.

Certainly not arguing that others innocents don't die in other countries or about Americans having a culture that imbibes in violence. Heck I was born there and lived in that "culture" until 35. Unfortunately it comes down to statistics, which translate to lots more innocents without cause, and how easy it is to obtain firearms. Bad stuff happens everywhere, but much more bad stuff using guns happens in America. Do you think most people there wish to have access to firearms that easy? Is there some real need for assault weapons? Do you really believe that teachers should carry guns and that would make the world safer? I'm familiar with the NRA's slogans as they have used these forever: "guns don't kill people, people do". Lame. How many seriously disturbed people could club or stab someone to death and how many could they do that to compared to using assault rifles? Guns are too much like video games where you just pull the trigger. No strength required; no physical contact; no mess on you. It's all literally at a distance. Guns are perfect for a psycho who isn't close or in touch.

It seems that there is a bill proposed in America that will attempt to at least ban assault rifles. Tenrorviol has got it right. Think of all the things controlled by laws. Does it really seem balanced that drivers are licensed and guns (or gun owners) are not? I think that the Americans are finally "getting it" and will push the gun lobbyists aside. The NRA doesn't need apologists. Americans need support in their attempts to change their laws. Hopefully Colin and jazzaferri are just playing "devil’s advocate".

I’m very grateful to be in New Zealand where even the police don’t carry guns. Now THAT makes me feel safer.
 
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kevgermany

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Re: Hug your children - now.

I don't see this as an American problem. It's a world problem. And it's not just (or even) gun control. Just before teh Newtown murders, there was a similar attack in China. With a knife. And it's the second in a couple of years.

For me it's a societal problem and we need to address these issues. Strict gun control will do nothing, but add to the problems. But I'm fully behind it as a short term measure until we address the real problems.
 

Pete Thomas

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Re: Hug your children - now.

I did not start a thread titled "Firearms Laws" and ask that the moderator who started this thread with this title remove my name from it.
that is not actually possible with the forum software.

The only way to remove your name would be to change your name. The thread was made from moving the off topic posts from the thread started by Luluna to a new thread, so automatically, it appears that the thread is started by the person who made the first post, chronologically.

EDIT: I sorted this now, I have copied a post of mine that was made earlier, so now it appars I started the thread.
 

aldevis

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Re: Hug your children - now.

I’m very grateful to be in New Zealand where even the police don’t carry guns. Now THAT makes me feel safer.
Many interesting points in this thread, but the "feeling" issue is quite essential.
Now when I go back to my country, where even traffic wardens sometimes carry guns, I feel threatened, while the English Bobbies makes me proud of living in this country.

In the American society, where they still have the "sheriff" I saw in cowboy movies celebrating the fastest gun, violence is the answer against the baddies.
It is a strong cultural problem, than would take decades to change, but needs to be addressed. Shooting in the eye Bin Laden, or hanging Saddam didn't help much to change this attitude (I am just talking about the effect of these action on the culture of violence).

In the meantime, allowing assault rifles in a country that regards violence as a solution of conflicts is looking for troubles.

If they ban guns, the baddie will still find a way to get them (no change, then), but the dangerous psychopaths maybe will not have such an easy access to assault rifles next time they feel misunderstood.
 

Fraser Jarvis

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Re: Hug your children - now.

Last time i spoke out about guns on this board, or more specifically defended a member who dared to publicly say he liked guns and enjoyed shooting i got shot to sh** so I'm keeping out of it this time...
 

Jazzaferri

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Re: Hug your children - now.

Wade. I live in a country that has moderately high levels of firearm ownership with low levels of firearm violence...mosst of which is in the illegal fhandgun classification. The source of most of the illegal handguns and semiauto weapons is the usa.

in Canada it takes a few months to get a licence to acquire and own a firearm which has to be renewed every 5 years. Complete with reference checks, and questions about divorce and mental health. Assault weapons and automatic fire weapons can only be held by collectors and they have to be proven to be irreversibly made inoperative. Handguns, are a whole 'nother level as well. All have to be kept secure and if you dont keep them secure well you are an accessory to the crime committed if they get used.

i support our regulations and policies to a point. i feel that we should also have to obtain a doctors certificate every renewal that he knows of no reason that a license should be denied, For years as a bush pilot when way up north I had a small but high power bolt action rifle as part of my emergency kit. The sum total of kills were a few cans and a few bottles. Never had to use it in anger fortunately...although I did have it out and ready in one bear encounter....but he left before the situation got more than a little tense....its actually a funny story now.

i see no purpose in civilians owning weapons designed for war. Seems crazy to me actually. I think it is also crazy that people can leave loaded weapons out unsecured. Thats how untrained innocents get injured and killed every year.

my thoughts on American gun issues are that while the reasons for the level of violence are more cmplex than there just being aeasy access, I think that a really strong system of registration with secure storage requirements and eliminating assault rifles and automatic weapons would be a good start for America that might just be politically acheivable.

to me they are just a tool. Mine are kept in a hidden secure safe with triger locks. None of them have been out for years. I doubt I will ever use any of them again unless i travel way up north again but one of my sons just might one day as he has gone north.
 
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Wade Cornell

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Re: Hug your children - now.

Last time i spoke out about guns on this board, or more specifically defended a member who dared to publicly say he liked guns and enjoyed shooting i got shot to sh** so I'm keeping out of it this time...
I doubt that the gun collector or hobby rifle range shooter is the problem, especially if they have done what is required in some countries to obtain a license. It's when nobody needs a license and any nut job can buy assault weapons that you have a problem. There will be people who think target practice is dumb. Other of us think motor racing is dumb, and in England I think it's Morris dancing? No matter. It's not about those for whom guns are sort of sports equipment. Heck, there's guns, archery, javelin throwing etc. as Olympic sports.
 

Fraser Jarvis

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1,910
Re: Hug your children - now.

I doubt that the gun collector or hobby rifle range shooter is the problem, especially if they have done what is required in some countries to obtain a license.
I did say i was keeping out of it this time but i will relate an incident that happened at the club i was in about 14 years ago now, firstly all new prospective members had to apply to the club in writing you then had to attend the next club meeting so the committee could decide if they liked you or not (if one member decided he/she didn't like you you wernt asked back) you then underwent a 6 month probationary period using the club rifles on range, when they were then satisfied you were safe you could then apply for your FAC and and acquire whatever rifle you fancied! ( i have fond memories of walking through the streets of York, struggling under the weight af the new Remington Police sniper rifle and 1200 rounds of 7.62 ammo i had just bought, but thats another story!) anyway at the time we had to Chinese lads as probationers, one Sunday morning one of the club target rifles and some ammo went missing, turned out these two had hidden it in some bushes just off range with the intention of coming back later on at night to get them! suffice to say we never saw them again, but the thing is you just don't really know who is trust worthy, just look at the recent Jimmy savile revelations, Thomas Hammilton, Micheal Ryan, both legitimate members of gun clubs.....but when you delve into their backgrounds, thats when the cracks began to appear, more stringent background checks is whats needed in this instant, but your never going to be fully sure.
Not to sure how you can regulate illegal firearms, in fact i doubt you ever will be able to, you can debate it all you like but the reality is nothing much can or will change...
 
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