Felt or cork

[Guenne]

Hi,
at the end of last year I got a wonderful Mark silver VII alto, freshly overhauled.
As far as I can evaluate it, the overhaul was very well done.
After a while I found out that where normally cork is used, the repairman used felt or or a combination of cork and felt.
The horn was still is wonderful to play, the keys run extremely smooth and silent, it plays better in tune than any Selmer I've ever played 🙂

So my question: Is that a kind of compromise (because it has to be repaired more often) but is more silent and smooth, is that bad, or is it not necessary to think about because felt is as durable as cork?

Thanks, Guenne

 

[Stephen Howard]

Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
There's been a trend in recent years to move away from cork - probably driven in part by the problems associated with felt (compression and wear), but I still prefer to use it in certain circumstances. Some advances have been made with the use of synthetic felt - but that isn't without its foibles either.
I take the middle ground and use woven wool - sometimes glueing it to cork to get the best of both worlds.

But it's perhaps not a case of which is best but rather how has each material been used, and where?

 

[rhysonsax]

There's been a trend in recent years to move away from cork - probably driven in part by the problems associated with felt (compression and wear),

I'm confused by what you've written. If there were problems with felt, why would that drive a move away from cork ?

Rhys

 

[turf3]

Horses for courses.

Where you want precision of alignment (stack keys), you should use high quality cork, or one of the less-compressive cork substitutes (as "tech cork"). Where you don't need that but you want more damping of key bounces, felt is good (bell key bumpers). Where there's relative sliding motion, felt has less friction than cork (often under front high F key), but as noted it's less precise, so you may want to use cork and apply lubrication (the bell key linkages on split-bell-key horns, for example). The best for relative sliding motion is Teflon, Delrin, or UHMW-PE, but it's hard and rigid and can make "clacking" sounds (works well in left hand table keys).

 

[Stephen Howard]

I'm confused by what you've written. If there were problems with felt, why would that drive a move away from cork ?

Rhys

Typo...should have read 'associated with it'

 

[Guenne]

I'll show you the horn in a video tomorrow.
Maybe it is indeed some kind of wool

Thanks!

 

[Stephen Howard]

I'll show you the horn in a video tomorrow.
Maybe it is indeed some kind of wool

Thanks!

Most decent felt is wool, but it's made from compressed fibres. You can buy woven felt - but I just find that woven wools are more robust.

 

[saxyjt]

Most decent felt is wool, but it's made from compressed fibres. You can buy woven felt - but I just find that woven wools are more robust.

Too bad some of that gets lost in translation... Too subtle for me. Felt made of wool, woven felt, woven wool... 😳

 

[Stephen Howard]

Too bad some of that gets lost in translation... Too subtle for me. Felt made of wool, woven felt, woven wool... 😳

Hey, I know what you mean...but apparently it's a thing.
When I was researching fabrics I ended up knee deep in swatches, trying to find something that would fit my specifications. It's all to do with the weave, or the weft or the something or other. As far as I was concerned my attitude was "Send me some stuff and I'll see if it's what I want...don't really care about the whys".
The bottom line is that there's 'proper' felt (compressed fibres), woven felt...and then other stuff. I use a 'superfine' wool (very thin), a Melton (bit thicker, slightly fluffier and a baize (quite thin, very dense).
The Melton was used for the backdrop of the sax manual, the baize for the clarinet.

 

[Guenne]

Hi,
@Stephen Howard:
Have you noticed the use of felt on horns that came directly from the manufacturer?
I remember a 875 tenor i bought second hand some years ago.

Cheers, Guenne

 

[Stephen Howard]

Hi,
@Stephen Howard:
Have you noticed the use of felt on horns that came directly from the manufacturer?
I remember a 875 tenor i bought second hand some years ago.

Cheers, Guenne

Oh yeah, a number of manufacturers use it. Yamaha are especially keen on it and even have their own particular shade of purple.

 

[saxyjt]

I have used felt a lot in my tech work, but I need to work on various types to see how they do. Only I've not been very active in that territory lately, to say the least. Way too busy with my regular job!

But he whole (wool) thing is very interesting.

 

[jbtsax]

I am a fan of using thin synthetic felt from JL Smith on the tops of key feet where they contact the back bar. It does not compress (especially if you hammer it first), it wears very well, it trims easily, and most important it is quiet. On other applications where there is some sliding between two parts that interact my choice is teflon sheet on one and thin synthetic felt on the other. I often use thick synthetic felt under the feet of the high E and side keys where contact is made with the body. It is quiet and to me has the right "feel". My choice for the feet of palm keys is tech cork because of its firmness. I still prefer regular cork for the feet of stack keys because compression isn't much of an issue and because it is easy to sand to remove lost motion.

I have a stock of "beaver felt" in different thicknesses that are leftovers from a local "hatter". Someday I will find time to work with it to see if there might be an application for it in saxophone repair.

 

[Colin the Bear]

"Beaver felt" now there's something to translate.

 

[PigSquealer]

XXX rated ! Can’t talk about that here

 

[Guenne]

 

[Stephen Howard]

Yep, that's bog standard these days - cork on the key feet, felt on the body. Gives you the adjustability of cork and the quieting of felt.
Some folks, though, have an aversion to felt glued to the body.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I am a fan of using thin synthetic felt from JL Smith on the tops of key feet where they contact the back bar. It does not compress (especially if you hammer it first), it wears very well, it trims easily, and most important it is quiet. On other applications where there is some sliding between two parts that interact my choice is teflon sheet on one and thin synthetic felt on the other.

I like to use the thin synthetic felt for regulation bars, though I have some doubts about its long-term quietness. I've noticed that it seems to harden up over time (though most buffering materials do to some degree...or at least form a 'glaze'). Still something I'm looking at.
What d'you use to glue Teflon sheet on? I often find it comes off over time, no matter what process I use (roughing the surfaces, various glues etc.). The most longevity I've had out of it is by gluing a sheets of it to some very thin natural cork with an epoxy resin - and then glueing that to the key with the standard adhesives.

 

[Guenne]

Some folks, though, have an aversion to felt glued to the body.

I understand that. Looks a bit inconsistent or unstable to me.
Thanks!

 

[Stephen Howard]

I understand that. Looks a bit inconsistent or unstable to me.
Thanks!

Inconsistent...yeah, perhaps.
Unstable? They're usually just fine. The only common problem is where a felt is glued to the body underneath the G# touchpiece foot. This felt takes a lot of punishment...especially a regular dousing from water expelled from the adjacent toneholes. This hardens the felt and knackers the glue holding it on.