Determining Pitch

[Melissa]

Hi folks,

Silly question, if I play a wind instrument open, with no keys pressed down, and on the Tuner is plays a G, does this equate to High pitch or Eb? The instrument in question is a Soprano sax. I get completely lost when I have instruments such as this!

Change that, I have re-checked and open is playing in F#, however, none of the pads seal except that of the G# key- if it is that. This is a rare sax C1887!

 

[Nick Wyver]

With no keys pressed you get a concert F#? I can't imagine any scenario involving a soprano that would give you that - even on an 1887 one. Are some of the keys stuck down? An in-tune sopranino should give you an E so I guess that if it's a high pitch one or one of the palm keys is not sealing (has it got palm keys?). The mouthpiece is probably not correct either. How long is it?

 

[Melissa]

With no keys pressed you get a concert F#? I can't imagine any scenario involving a soprano that would give you that - even on an 1887 one. Are some of the keys stuck down? An in-tune sopranino should give you an E so I guess that if it's a high pitch one or one of the palm keys is not sealing (has it got palm keys?). The mouthpiece is probably not correct either. How long is it?

Thank you Nick, I must be really thick😳- and you are right, I had to make an Alto mouthpiece fit to see if anything came out, only the G# is closed, someone attempted to repad it...really poorly too. I noticed an Adolphe sax at the Edinburgh Museum of C1860 in a nominal Bb.

 

[jbtsax]

Those are very shallow key cups. To repad it correctly would require very thin bassoon pads.

 

[kevgermany]

looks to me as if it's keyed up to D, so opening the LH palm keys and trying would give a better idea. But check what it's actually keyed to. Sop mouthpiece would help a lot. But it's also possible to work it out from the tone hole positions by measuring. Easiest is probably to compare it to instruments of known pitch - if you can find one like that.

 

[jbtsax]

The length of my Buffet Evette-Shaeffer Bb soprano of about the same vintage is 653mm or roughly 25 11/16". It too has only two side keys, metal touchpieces, and is keyed up to high Eb. The difference in mine is that it has rollers on the low Eb and C keys and it has the modified Apogee system with RH trill keys for the low Bb, B, and C#. It plays quite well in tune except for the highest notes which I believe to be more of a mouthpiece volume issue than a deficiency of the instrument. I just haven't taken the time to experiment with it. When I play it on gigs, I simply stay in the range that it plays in tune with my Selmer scroll D mouthpiece.

 

[Melissa]

The length of my Buffet Evette-Shaeffer Bb soprano of about the same vintage is 653mm or roughly 25 11/16". It too has only two side keys, metal touchpieces, and is keyed up to high Eb. The difference in mine is that it has rollers on the low Eb and C keys and it has the modified Apogee system with RH trill keys for the low Bb, B, and C#. It plays quite well in tune except for the highest notes which I believe to be more of a mouthpiece volume issue than a deficiency of the instrument. I just haven't taken the time to experiment with it. When I play it on gigs, I simply stay in the range that it plays in tune with my Selmer scroll D mouthpiece.

I am actually contemplating having it put into playing order, though may not be cost effective, but as a collectors instrument it must have a some reasonable value.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Probably less than an overhaul would cost.

 

[Melissa]

Probably less than an overhaul would cost.

Wonderful vote of confidence it is rather rare you know, pre 1885 build.😎 Some love them and it is a little piece of musical history. I was actually hoping it would not cost much more than an A Clarinet 🙂 yeah right!

 

[kevgermany]

Guess it's got two octave keys as well. Looks very good.

 

[jbtsax]

Guess it's got two octave keys as well. Looks very good.

From the pictures on the website you are correct. The single octave key was invented in 1888 the same year that the rollers on low C and Eb were added. Since the length of this soprano is 53mm shorter than my soprano that I know is low pitch, it is definitely a high pitch instrument.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Since the length of this soprano is 53mm shorter than my soprano that I know is low pitch, it is definitely a high pitch instrument.

I must have missed something. How do you know how long it is?

 

[jbtsax]

I must have missed something. How do you know how long it is?

By going to this website: http://www.vintagemusicalinstruments.co.uk/product/buffet-cramponsoprano

 

[kevgermany]

John, this looks as if it's only keyed down to B, not Bb

 

[Nick Wyver]

By going to this website: http://www.vintagemusicalinstruments.co.uk/product/buffet-cramponsoprano

Ah! Thanks.

 

[jbtsax]

John, this looks as if it's only keyed down to B, not Bb

Excellent observation. I missed that entirely. A rough calculation dividing 653 mm by the 12th root of 2 (1.05946) gives the estimate of a soprano a half step higher at 616.35 mm only 16 mm more than Melissa's measurement. If it were a high pitch instrument, it would probably be off the other direction.

The wavelength of A=220 at speed of sound 345 m/s is 156.82 cm. The wavelength of A=228.5 (half of 457) is 150.98 cm. Their difference is 5.84 cm or 58.4 mm. Therefore a Bb soprano keyed to low Bb that is high pitch would be approximately 58 mm shorter overall than one pitched at A 440. There I hope that has sufficiently confused everyone including myself. 🙂

 

[Jeanette]

I need to go and lie down 😵

Jx

 

[kevgermany]

Looks like HP to me. Keyed to low B in HP will be shorter than your rough calc. by about 4%. But these are very rough calcs. We really need to check the scale for each tone hole, and add in the tone hole heights and so on. Either that or play it against a tuner.

 

[griff136]

The best way is to check each note against a tuner - and to confuse things a little I would try checking both A=440 and A=442 as some buffet horns up to the 70's were made in both Low pitches (442 being the European low pitch version).
Whilst the overall length of the horn can give an indication to it's pitch it's not the show stopper as some makers including Conn around 1929 made low pitch A=440 Hz sopranos in two different lengths 26.5 and 25.5 inches.

A very interesting topic IMO although it may bore the pants off most folk.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Any news on what note you get with a soprano mouthpiece?

Once you do get one, the next obstacle is to find the best tuing position on the cork.

A simple way (assuming all the keys are working) is to fiddle around until the low B and it's 1st overtone (one octave) are reasonably in tune.

This is still not perfect as a modern mputhpiece is most likely going to be a mismatch in regard to chamber size so ideally try this with an 1887 mouthpiece, or at least an early 20 century mouthpiece.

I once had a high pitch soprano, it played in tune the best if I assumed it was pitched in B.