All profit supporting special needs music education and Help Musicians
PPT Mouthpieces

De-Transposing

zannad

Member
Messages
410
As guys won't behave, I've moved the "De-transposing" discussion here.
These posts taken from this thread:
http://cafesaxophone.com/showthread.php?9090-Sheet-Music-Question


Kev

Zannad's post:


"de-transposing is impossible...."????
Isn't that misleading? Not only it is possible but it can also be very useful for anyone because if one lose the Eb score paper and is presented with a C score (from the guitarist or pianist) you'd better learning how to transpose on sight - in that instance one is de-transposing.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
Cafe Moderator
Messages
12,199
Re: Sheet Music Question....

The guy would like to use some old scores written in C which aren't available in transposed form in the market - he has 2 options:
1) transpose that old scores using for example one of the many software available (or transpose by hand)
2) de-transpose his sax - i.e. thinking in C = re-mapping the fingering in his sax.

3) Sight transposition. It is not a exoteric practice. Sooner or later it needs to be done. Better start soon knowing which notes we are talking about.
First step is getting confident with the fact that written C equals concert Bb (or Eb on the alto).
You cannot skip this step if you are planning to communicate with other musicians.

Sight transposition is a technique that some instruments (i.e. trumpets) have to use quite often in some styles of music.
The "de-transposing" technique (that had a relative short existence in some areas, in the past) presents other problems, like the need of having parts written in concert pitch. I have never seen a part for "alto saxophone in C" or "tenor saxophone in Bass clef".

Because if you want to be honest in de-transposing, tenor and baritone saxophone should read in bass clef, alto in alto clef and soprano in treble.

if one lose the Eb score paper and is presented with a C score (from the guitarist or pianist) you'd better learning how to transpose on sight - in that instance one is de-transposing.

It is not, it is one specific case of sight transposing. Exactly like have a singer saying "it is too low for me, let's play it higher"
 
Last edited by a moderator:

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: Sheet Music Question....

3) Sight transposition. It is not a exoteric practice. Sooner or later it needs to be done. Better start soon knowing which notes we are talking about.
First step is getting confident with the fact that written C equals concert Bb (or Eb on the alto).
You cannot skip this step if you are planning to communicate with other musicians.

Sight transposition is a technique that some instruments (i.e. trumpets) have to use quite often in some styles of music.
The "de-transposing" technique (that had a relative short existence in some areas, in the past) presents other problems, like the need of having parts written in concert pitch. I have never seen a part for "alto saxophone in C" or "tenor saxophone in Bass clef".

Because if you want to be honest in de-transposing, tenor and baritone saxophone should read in bass clef, alto in alto clef and soprano in treble.



It is not, it is one specific case of sight transposing. Exactly like have a singer saying "it is too low for me, let's play it higher"


It is interesting how you use the term "De-transposing" like it is already defined by who?/what? - more precisely, coming from where exactly?
Probably I was the one that brought that term in here for the first time (I made it up), and probably has never been adopted before (not in any music class I'd attended anyhow). As such, it is probably my task to explain myself what I mean by "de-transposing" - a term which I dislike too....and only needed to communicate with those who transpose (fortunately I've only played with "C minded" guitarist and bass players - and drummers?!).
Once a proper definition of the term "de-transposing" is laid then - would be possible to start a proper discussion between mature people who happen to be keen musicians and respectful of each other ideas and differences (I hope).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
Cafe Moderator
Messages
12,199
Re: Sheet Music Question....

It is interesting how you use the term "De-transposing" like it is already defined by who?/what? - more precisely, coming from were exactly?
Probably I was the one that brought that term in here for the first time (I made it up), and probably has never been adopted before (not in any music class I'd attended anyhow). As such, it is probably my task to explain myself what I mean by "de-transposing" - a term which I dislike too....and only needed to communicate with those who transpose (fortunately I've only played with "C minded" guitarist and bass players - and drummers?!).
Once a proper definition of the term "de-transposing" is laid then - would be possible to start a proper discussion between mature people who happen to be keen musicians and respectful of each other ideas and differences (I hope).

I was simply using your terms, since "de-transposing" sound good.
Saxophones are "transposing instruments". You are "de-transposing" them making a "tenor saxophone in Bb" a "Tenor saxophone in C descending to Ab"

I guess the correct term would be something like "fingering concert notes" but "de-transposing" sounds much more effective.

The practice of learning the fingering of concert notes was allegedly common on Naples until recently. Incidentally the same town where clarinet players allegedly used to put the reed on the top. I do not have any direct experience of this, though.

A discussion on the subject can be risky, as it would be a reform of the "C1" to describe the low C on any saxophone (It is definitely not a C1, unless you have a C melody bass saxophone).

Common practice rules. If you only play alto in pop bands with no other horns and no need to read horn parts, fine to call fingerings in any way we like. Otherwise we need to come to terms with other players and instruments.

What did Mozart after his death? De-composed.
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: Sheet Music Question....

I was simply using your terms, since "de-transposing" sound good.
Saxophones are "transposing instruments". You are "de-transposing" them making a "tenor saxophone in Bb" a "Tenor saxophone in C descending to Ab"

I guess the correct term would be something like "fingering concert notes" but "de-transposing" sounds much more effective.

The practice of learning the fingering of concert notes was allegedly common on Naples until recently. Incidentally the same town where clarinet players allegedly used to put the reed on the top. I do not have any direct experience of this, though.

A discussion on the subject can be risky, as it would be a reform of the "C1" to describe the low C on any saxophone (It is definitely not a C1, unless you have a C melody bass saxophone).

Common practice rules. If you only play alto in pop bands with no other horns and no need to read horn parts, fine to call fingerings in any way we like. Otherwise we need to come to terms with other players and instruments.

What did Mozart after his death? De-composed.


Can we simply state that Transposition is a convention? There is nothing inherently technical that limit a particular sax in a certain "transposed mode"? At that point we have a choice....

Common practice rules...majority rules...but then this majority shouldn't become a dictatorship and impose it's rules ways onto others - Then if the law of might is right is adopted we should not forget that exists another majority made by "C instruments" (guitar, piano, violin, bass and many more) which represent the real majority and maybe there is a chance that in a non distance future Bb and Eb transposed conventions will be blasted from the scene - virtually this has already happened for other transposed "conventions" - let's distinguish conventions from the instrument because the 2 can be separated from each other.

(like the one about Mozart)
 

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
Cafe Moderator
Messages
12,199
Re: Sheet Music Question....

It will last as a convention as long as it is useful to communicate. As a convention, alto recorder reads concert notes and French Horn reads transposed, but not always.

I propose to change the names of the seven notes! It is an old meaningless convention.
Two options:
1: ABCDEFG but A is what now is C, so ABCDEFGA is a major scale
2: Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun, much easier to memorize. (Autumn leaves in Thu Minor, please)

Other suggestions are welcome
 

jbtsax

Well-Known Member
Subscriber
Messages
8,267
Re: Sheet Music Question....

I'm confused. In music transposition refers to the process of moving a collection of notes up or down in pitch by a constant interval. The prefix "de" means "to remove or reverse". Therefore to me "de-transpose" would refer to a piano player reading a melody written for the alto saxophone and playing it in concert pitch. Or. . . . did I miss a joke somewhere?????

If this is wrong, then someone please "de-confuse" me. :confused:
 

Chris

Well Known
Subscriber
Messages
3,821
Re: Sheet Music Question....

Zannad, I can't see why just because you want to walk of of step with the world of music, I have to learn three fingerings to play the sax, Bb Eb and C-Melody. It doesn't make any sense.. It is easier to move notes on paper than it is to learn new fingerings...

Chris...
 

rudjarl

Senile Member. Scandinavian Ambassadour of CaSLM
Messages
657
Re: Sheet Music Question....

Zannad, I can't see why just because you want to walk of of step with the world of music, I have to learn three fingerings to play the sax, Bb Eb and C-Melody. It doesn't make any sense.. It is easier to move notes on paper than it is to learn new fingerings...

Chris...

Not only that Chris, you would have to learn different fingerings on the same instrument according to whether is a C score, Bb score or Eb score too.
 

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
Cafe Moderator
Messages
12,199
Re: Sheet Music Question....

I'm confused. In music transposition refers to the process of moving a collection of notes up or down in pitch by a constant interval. The prefix "de" means "to remove or reverse". Therefore to me "de-transpose" would refer to a piano player reading a melody written for the alto saxophone and playing it in concert pitch. Or. . . . did I miss a joke somewhere?????

If this is wrong, then someone please "de-confuse" me. :confused:

Zannad is a big supporter of learning fingerings for concert notes from day one.
I like the word de-transposing and it makes some sense if you think of saxophones and clarinets as "transposing instruments".
It raises few concerns when the fingering xxx|ooo has to receive different names if you play alto, tenor, bari, A clarinet (in both registers), Cmelody, mezzo....

I am a big supporter of seeing a C and knowing it has to be played as an A on alto or Eb on an A clarinet.
On the other hand conductors do it continuosly, and I am much nicer than any conductor (except Barenboim, my idol)
 

jbtsax

Well-Known Member
Subscriber
Messages
8,267
Re: Sheet Music Question....

Thanks. Now I get it. I believe that once one learns to transpose fluently that the "de-transposition" takes place automatically without thinking.
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: Sheet Music Question....

It will last as a convention as long as it is useful to communicate. As a convention, alto recorder reads concert notes and French Horn reads transposed, but not always.

I propose to change the names of the seven notes! It is an old meaningless convention.
Two options:
1: ABCDEFG but A is what now is C, so ABCDEFGA is a major scale
2: Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun, much easier to memorize. (Autumn leaves in Thu Minor, please)

Other suggestions are welcome

nothing to be gain there...
One has 2 kids...one is called Bob and the other Giselle - the father tells Giselle to come when he calls "Bob" and tells Bob to come when he calls "Giselle" - that's transposition.
De-transposing cuts all that cxxp.....(something to be gain).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Colin the Bear

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,561
Re: Sheet Music Question....

It's all meaningless if you don't read. You hum it son and I'll play it. "Do you know the piano is on my foot? Two sugars please.
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: Sheet Music Question....

Zannad, I can't see why just because you want to walk of of step with the world of music, I have to learn three fingerings to play the sax, Bb Eb and C-Melody. It doesn't make any sense.. It is easier to move notes on paper than it is to learn new fingerings...

Chris...


Chris...I can do it - but that's cos' I'm a genius ;}
Seriously....what makes you think is that difficult? Your fingers follows your brain - get the first note right and you are up and running no matter what sax you are playing but then my reading in real time is very limited.
If you read a lot and complex scores?! I got nothing to say there...(you might have a point) -
 
Last edited by a moderator:

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: Sheet Music Question....

It's all meaningless if you don't read. You hum it son and I'll play it. "Do you know the piano is on my foot? Two sugars please.

mmmm....it depends on how much you read - if one has been reading constantly for 30 odd years and relies on that I wouldn't recommend to gamble.
Something to be gain and something to lose (more to be gain in the long term IMHO) - there is an alternative out there and it wont fits us all.
Do you play Jazz and improvise a lot? Go the whole hog for blood sake - what transposition got to do with Jazz?! (a fkall).
Love the breakfast room can we swear freely here? (Where's the coffe?)
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: Sheet Music Question....

Thanks. Now I get it. I believe that once one learns to transpose fluently that the "de-transposition" takes place automatically without thinking.


nah...it's about proper labeling.
You call 260Hz C (or DO if you use solfege) when playing the piano and Eb when playing the alto and Bb when playing the tenor = messing up with your sense of pitch...
Reading music isn't necessarily detrimental to the ear but transposed reading could be the cause - reading all in C concert pitch should provide the right solution = more consistency and maybe gain perfect pitch too?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ArtyLady

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,030
Re: Sheet Music Question....

So.......I'd have to play 3 different lots of fingering for flute, Alto, Tenor and Soprano........I'll just stick with changing the music/key cheers! :thumb:
 

Colin the Bear

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,561
Re: Sheet Music Question....

I always thought perfect pitch was a gift not a skill
 

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
Cafe Moderator
Messages
12,199
Re: Sheet Music Question....

nah...it's about proper labeling.
You call 260Hz C (or DO if you use solfege) when playing the piano and Eb when playing the alto and Bb when playing the tenor = messing up with your sense of pitch...
Reading music isn't necessarily detrimental to the ear but transposed reading could be the cause - reading all in C concert pitch should provide the right solution = more consistency and maybe gain perfect pitch too?

Wrong: 261.63Hz is concert C (A=440), written A on second space if you play alto, written D on third line if you play tenor, written D below the staff on soprano...
If you use solfege you call it Do regardless of frequency, as long as it is 1st step on a scale.

If you want to invent a new system, please be precise.
 
Top Bottom