Saxophones David's interesting finds - Badly listed Conn 6M... or is it?

[DavidUK]

...or is it... badly listed?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alto-saxophone/383901526054

OK, so you can see it's a Conn and it says as much in the brief description. But NOT saying it's a "rare silver plated Conn 6M from the 1930's with rolled tone holes and underslung octave key" may make those finding it think they've found a secret hoard. They find it at £77 starting price and make a note to keep looking and they could nab it for a few hundred. But then they get carried away with "I must win" fever. The short shank Selmer MP gives them hope that's an added bonus too.

Delve a little deeper and you'd find the current owner has had it for 45 years, played it the other day to check it and was reminded how loud it was! He says it has no dents and he can't remember the pads ever having been changed in that time.

Look carefully at the bell and you'll see it's a LaFleur London distributed horn.

It may well polish up fine and bring that engraving back to life. It may not, and there's certainly brass showing through on many of the keys indicating a hard but loved life. I'd wager it would need a full overhaul which could add £4-500 to the purchase price to give you a lovely old horn worth around £1,000.

Bidding is at £445 as I type with just over a day to go. I would have bid a few hundred but I wonder how mad it'll go near the end?

Fancy a go?

NB. I have no connection with the seller whatsoever.

 

[turf3]

Well, it IS a Conn 6M in what appears to be excellent physical condition.

My guess is that $150 for a "playing condition" service (numerous pads, a few corks and felts, and re-regulation) and you could play that in any professional setting whatsoever for many years.

It'd probably sell, just as it is, for $1000 or so in the US right now.

So what's your question?

 

[JayeNM]

Not sure it would fetch $1g here as is given there is no standard Lady engraving, actually.

Interesting horn, really...the general belief is American makers did not offer their top-shelfers as stencil subcontracts, but here, clearly, is one.

I agree, it is probably going under the radar of a fair number of Conn hunters (that is, until NOW 😉)

 

[Stephen Howard]

They weren't really stencils as such. Although they featured different engraving, they were quite clearly marked as being made by Conn - and distributed by Lafleur. My guess is that Lafleur felt they had enough clout/sales in the UK to persuade Conn to customise the bells for them.
It's also quite common to see such models sold without the Microtuner. Rumour has it that it wasn't a popular fitment with British players.

 

[Jimmymack]

£512 at the moment, it will probably reach £800 easily in the last flurry of bids, not sure I’d want to pay that with the work probably needed but I suppose I might if I was an alto player. I hope it goes to somebody who wants to play it.

 

[JayeNM]

They weren't really stencils as such. Although they featured different engraving, they were quite clearly marked as being made by Conn - and distributed by Lafleur. My guess is that Lafleur felt they had enough clout/sales in the UK to persuade Conn to customise the bells for them.
It's also quite common to see such models sold without the Microtuner. Rumour has it that it wasn't a popular fitment with British players.

Interesting, never knew that and it isn't something one sees, usually...OK, I could not see the engraving very well, the pics in the auction leave much to be desired. The seller would have done himself a favor by at least noting "Conn" in the auction title, then....

 

[MMM]

The 6M (as well as the 10M tenor) have really surged in price recently. It is easy to find them ready to play for anything between £1000 to £2000 , this one is in silver plate and looks in very good nick. For £1000 all in (but I think the auction will end closer to £7-800) it would be an excellent purchase.
So not a horn to flip but for someone looking for a first class vintage, I can't fault it.

 

[Jimmymack]

Interesting, never knew that and it isn't something one sees, usually...OK, I could not see the engraving very well, the pics in the auction leave much to be desired. The seller would have done himself a favor by at least noting "Conn" in the auction title, then....

It would have helped but presumably the seller doesn’t know but I think there are quite a few people who know what they are looking at.

 

[nigeld]

I read somewhere that Conn sometimes sold their saxophones in Europe as stencils in order to avoid import taxes.

 

[DavidUK]

It would have helped but presumably the seller doesn’t know but I think there are quite a few people who know what they are looking at.

He put Conn in the description, "Manufacture by Conn", just not in the title.

Would he have been better with "Superb silver plated Conn 6M - Rare UK LaFleur version. 1930's rolled tone holes and underslung neck. Selmer mouthpiece"

I'm not so sure. It may have put buyers off as then the "everyone else can see what it is and they're all going to bid" nervousness kicks in rather than "oh my god, he doesn't know what he has here and I'm going to be the one who nabs it for myself" fever.

I've spotted a fair few "sleepers" on eBay but I've never ever bagged a bargain there. Too many prowlers.

 

[thomsax]

My guess is that Lafleur felt they had enough clout/sales in the UK to persuade Conn to customise the bells for them.

Or sold as blanks?

 

[thomsax]

I read somewhere that Conn sometimes sold their saxophones in Europe as stencils in order to avoid import taxes.

Maybe. In the 60's and 70's european manufactors (cars) started assembling plants in USA., Maybe a way to have low import duties. Selmer US did the same with Selmer VI. Maybe Couf/Armstrong (Keilwerth) and Dabco (Hammerschmidt) did some works in USA? Yamaha US had thier office/plant in Grand Rapid, MI. Same town as York made saxes back in 20*s and 30's.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Or sold as blanks?

I wouldn't have thought so, I don't think they would have had the facilities to do it.

 

[JayeNM]

It would have helped but presumably the seller doesn’t know but I think there are quite a few people who know what they are looking at.

Thing is, on eFlay, oftentimes a mistitled auction just gets glossed over. I have won some of my best deals in that way. If it doesn't say mfr. name, it could get only around half the views it would otherwise.
Just seems an unfortunate mistake to me that as seller knows it was made by Conn he wouldn't include that in title....

So yes, folks (who clicked on the listing) know what they are looking at...but very good chance less folks would be clicking on it to begin with, basically.

 

[brianr]

Auction ended at £825.
A real bargain, I think.
Especially with a short shank soloist included. If that’s a D or an E and in good condition, the mouthpiece on its could be worth £300/400.

I would have bid on this and driven to collect it, but with lockdown, that’s not possible.
And there is no way I’m sending someone with feedback of 1, that kind of money.

Someone is going to be very happy, hopefully

 

[thomsax]

Badly listed. I have done that many times. The guys I used to play with they bought and sold instruments, amps .... . I couldn't contribute with interesting selling stories. Simply because I don't like to sell things. I have a very understanding wife but somtimes she ask if I sold the saxes she dragged home. Of course, they are still here. So I also put together badly listed ads.

• Don't mention the brand name.
• Mention it's a perfect Rock & Roll Saxophone. 95% of the players here around are into jazz so they don't touch a Rock & Roll Sax.
• Mention tricky intonation because everybody are searching for the perfect pitch and don't understand that it's the player that is the problem
• Be 100 % honest. Show some bad pads, dings and the bad laquer.
• A link to the Martin's bad toneholes is also helping up.

Some tips to keep you baby.

 

[DavidUK]

This one's for sale in the small ads at £775 BUT can you spot what's unusual?:

"No damage. Plays beautifully. S/N H50*** 1966"

 

[DavidUK]

Did you spot it? Here:

 

[turf3]

It looks like an ordinary garden variety Conn alto from the late 60s with sheet metal key guards.

 

[JayeNM]

It's a real 6M, the late 60's ones had the sheet guards, straight toneholes, no microtuner, and nickelplate keys. None of that is after-factory. They stopped the wire guards around '67ish, so I'd have to believe those are factory....

Incredible bargains, like the 60's 10M's, because people think they aren't as good...but fact is the body, neck specs were still identical (minus RTH) and the keywork was 90% identical....so they blow and respond just like a 6M.

Market value of them is low....usually $7-800 in good playing/physical shape.