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Beginner D# - Eb the same notes? (enharmonic)

Zannie, the basic rule is that each scale has A,B,C,D,E,F,G and each letter occurs only once. It can be sharp or flat instead of natural. So in the scale of C#, C is already taken. And the note below it has to be B. As it's a full tone from B to C#, the B must be sharpened to get the semi tone up to C#, hence it's B# and not C.

It's a natural consequence of us using a scale as the base of our music, and the scale has unevenly spaced notes.

Confusing at first, but much more logical as you play more and in different keys.
 
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Oh I know, my point is I thoroughly agree with the poster I quoted - if I'm playing/singing something in a certain key, if the wrong enharmonics are used it scrambles my brain, especially if it's something I'm sightreading/learning because it helps you understand where the piece is going. An F# in a Db piece when it should be a Gb would be most discombobulating.
 
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Sometimes it can get ridiculous. I came across this weird attempt at correctness a while ago. Note how the G# on the F7#9 changes to Ab on the Bb7.

hefalump.jpg
 
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Sometimes it can get ridiculous. I came across this weird attempt at correctness a while ago. Note how the G# on the F7#9 changes to Ab on the Bb7.

View attachment 10842
I would have considered it wrong if it had not been written that way. Music is written to be harmonically correct, not for the convenience of the player. :)
 
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Sometimes it can get ridiculous. I came across this weird attempt at correctness a while ago. Note how the G# on the F7#9 changes to Ab on the Bb7.

View attachment 10842

That looks wrong, I would have Ab all the way through. It's a blues, the obvious thing is to have a flattened 3rd.

In this case I would have that chord symbol as a F7 - there is no need to have an extansion because that is the melody.

But if you do have an extension then b10 is better in this case than #9 - especially now that Mr Aebersaold has broken the chord symbol system and made everyone thing that when you have a #9 then you automatically have a # or b 5, patently not the case in a simple blues like this one.

BTW, @Dibbs what is that tune (rif) called? It's like the Austin Powers riff but I wonder if it preceded that. I'd be interested to know.
 
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but as an explanation for my brain I am going with "nigeld" and his:

"And sometimes I think the publishers are just making our lives difficult. I played a piece recently that had a Gb and an F# in the same bar"
Although I think @nigeld is right about that (or else the arranger is slightly less than competent) it actually isn't the answer to your question. There really is a valid reason for using correct enharmonic spellings.
 
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Sometimes it can get ridiculous. I came across this weird attempt at correctness a while ago. Note how the G# on the F7#9 changes to Ab on the Bb7.

View attachment 10842

I get charts like those to play all the time indeed, sometimes even with a F# and Gb in the same bar. Looking at the chord progressions it makes sense, but it complicates reading at speed when they're close together. Best to just memorise such passages.
 
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Sometimes it can get ridiculous. I came across this weird attempt at correctness a while ago. Note how the G# on the F7#9 changes to Ab on the Bb7.

View attachment 10842
In fact, I believe that is wrong anyway, that the F7#9 should actually be F7♭10 and then it is correct bot melodically and harmonically.

EDIT: oops I already said that in post #25 5 years ago :)
 
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If you want to annoy me, show me an Ultimate Guitar chord chart with what should be a B flat chord written as A sharp. Their software would have you believe that the primary triads of F major are F, A# and C. This does bad things to my brain.
 
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Many folk (possibly classically trained in music :) ) seem to make the mistake that the stuff written on paper is somehow "music". It isn't. The sounds that people make when they interpret those scribblings is music. The opinion of this old man is that the dots should be written in such a way as to make it easiest to produce the music, not so they conform to what some professor in 1800 thought was "correct". Daft enharmonic changes, double flats and double sharps do not aid the production of music.
 
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The opinion of this old man is that the dots should be written in such a way as to make it easiest to produce the music, not so they conform to what some professor in 1800 thought was "correct".
The problem is that it can vary depending on who is reading and whether the harmonic context is useful to them.

I can also imagine some people get confused by B#, but others may prefer B# to C in the key of C#; or D# in preference to Eb in the key of E. In many instances I would prefer that, not due so much to do with theoretical correctness but more to knowing how what I play is fitting in with the music I hear.
 
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Many folk (possibly classically trained in music :) ) seem to make the mistake that the stuff written on paper is somehow "music". It isn't. The sounds that people make when they interpret those scribblings is music. The opinion of this old man is that the dots should be written in such a way as to make it easiest to produce the music, not so they conform to what some professor in 1800 thought was "correct". Daft enharmonic changes, double flats and double sharps do not aid the production of music.
My best conservatorium lecturer used to make precisely the opposite point, making certain that we understood that music was sound, not dots on paper. But if we are going to notate it, whether in standard form, chord charts or tablature I feel that it should be done in a way that makes understanding what's going on easier, not more difficult. Sometimes you need more "difficult" notation for that. For example if someone wants me to read an E flat minor chord in standard notation I would far rather they write it E flat G flat B flat than E flat F sharp B flat. The first looks like a triad, the second does not.
 
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But if we are going to notate it, whether in standard form, chord charts or tablature I feel that it should be done in a way that makes understanding what's going on easier, not more difficult.
But still there sometimes do need to be compromises. Notwithstanding what I said above that correctness is often useful, for me it may be going too far if the correctness means loads of double sharps.

And I think most arrangers will adapt the 7th of a diminished chord so that the 7th of a C diminished may be written as A as opposed to B♭♭
 
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But still there sometimes do need to be compromises. Notwithstanding what I said above that correctness is often useful, for me it may be going too far if the correctness means loads of double sharps.

And I think most arrangers will adapt the 7th of a diminished chord so that the 7th of a C diminished may be written as A as opposed to B♭♭
I'd agree with the last example. And how you approach it might also depend on whether it's to be read more melodically or harmonically. And various other things - eg as a long time choral singer I appreciate a minor sixth looking like one rather than an augmented fifth, which will tend to cause confusion in my aged brain.
 
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I think you mean F# minor. :)

As I said my argument is about ease of reading the dots in order to produce the music. The use of double flats and the like certainly slows me down and I've been playing for 50 odd years. It would also slow down anyone I've taught in the last 35 years. You may well be different. I actually don't give a stuff whether it's 'technically correct'. Again, you probably disagree.
 
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I think you mean F# minor. :)

As I said my argument is about ease of reading the dots in order to produce the music. The use of double flats and the like certainly slows me down and I've been playing for 50 odd years. It would also slow down anyone I've taught in the last 35 years. You may well be different. I actually don't give a stuff whether it's 'technically correct'. Again, you probably disagree.
F# minor. Are you sure that you're not really a guitarist? :D My reason for using the double flat in this instance (Gb minor) is that the group of notes, at a glance and without doing any analysis, looks like the "normal" chord that it is. Write it with an A instead and it looks like some crunchy thing.
 
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