All profit supporting special needs music education and Help Musicians
SYOS

Cryogenic treatment?

Fraser Jarvis

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,912
Just been reading about this over on the Sax gourmet site, he goes on to say that they freeze the sax down to -400degrees which alters the atoms within the metal and makes it play much better and a lot more responsive!
I must say the whole thing sounds like a crock of s*** to me but the guy seems to know what he's talking about, anyone had this done, and what was the outcome?
 

Dave McLaughlin

Sesquipedalian
Subscriber
Messages
305
As I said over at http://cafesaxophone.com/showthread.php?5342-(Why)-Does-the-shape-fabric-of-crook-affect-the-playability-sound&p=53885#post53885, I don't believe the crook material can affect the sound - a tube of that diameter is simply too small to have any effect in the audible frequency range.

The same argument can be extended further down the sax. Go to the spreadsheet at https://public.sheet.zoho.com/public/dave.mclau/ring-frequency, click on "Click to Edit" and try inserting the diameter of the sax at the first open tone-hole for any given note. I'm sure you'll find the critical frequency is far higher than that of the note itself.

In my view, the material of the sax body cannot affect the tone. The material of the pads might. Will freezing affect them? In a good way? I'm not convinced. The material of the springs can affect how quickly the pads open and close. Will freezing affect that? Unlikely, I would have thought; it usually takes more heat, not less, to change the crystalline structure of metals. It's not inconceivable that freezing might affect the spring tension, but it seems unlikely. In any case, a competent tech can adjust the spring tension to achieve all the responsiveness your fingers can cope with.
 

old git

Tremendous Bore
Messages
5,545
As the BBC Code series argued that there are an infinity of infinities, my Brain hurts Brian, could there not be an infinity of absolute zeroes?

Personally believe that subjecting the saxophone / player combination to cryogenic treatment, would have a more provable effect. However we must remember that at one of the infinities of absolute zero, having established a voltage difference, the current would continue flowing until one of the infinities of entropy reigns. Brain hurts even more now.

Apologies for being serious.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Subscriber
Messages
21,947
There was a thread somewhere, I don't think it was here. A materials scientist commented on it. I can't remember the arguments, but his opinion was that the sort of cryogenic treatment being offered didn't change the structure of the metal the sax is made of. So even if the sound of a sax is affected by what it's made of, the effects of cryogenic treatment are zero.

On saxgourmet, I'd take ALL claims with a pinch of salt. Try searching for his name on SOTW. Unless the posts have been deleted, I think you'll find it pretty interesting.
 

Fraser Jarvis

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,912
I don't believe the crook material can affect the sound - a tube of that diameter is simply too small to have any effect in the audible frequency range.
Well in that case maybe you should go try a Cannonball with the two necks, one made of brass, one made of silver, i can tell you there was a massive difference between the two.
B.T.W. the neck is the single most influential component next to the mouthpiece to effect the sound of a sax.
 

Dave McLaughlin

Sesquipedalian
Subscriber
Messages
305
Well in that case maybe you should go try a Cannonball with the two necks, one made of brass, one made of silver, i can tell you there was a massive difference between the two.
B.T.W. the neck is the single most influential component next to the mouthpiece to effect the sound of a sax.

Are they the same shape? Different shapes can certainly make a difference.

If they are the same shape, I can see how different materials might result in different local vibration characteristics, which could be felt by the player through the mouthpiece. I can't see how they can affect far-field noise.
 

dooce

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,421
Are they the same shape? Different shapes can certainly make a difference.

If they are the same shape, I can see how different materials might result in different local vibration characteristics, which could be felt by the player through the mouthpiece. I can't see how they can affect far-field noise.

I don't think the Cannonball necks are different materials, although they are finished differently. One neck matches the sax finish, the other is finished in frosted silver and has the octave pip on the underside. Yes, there is a difference in sound, but not on a cosmic scale.
 

jonf

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,680
Cryogenics. Sax Gourmet put forth this proposition. Sax gourmet is run by which wavy haired entrepreneur? Who is the greatest purveyor of snake oil in the sax market? Draw your own conclusions.

Just my own personal opinion........
 

Young Col

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,419
So if I put my Mauriat in the freezer for a few hours will it play better when I get it out? Will Mr Gourmet compensate me for the displaced food that defrosts meanwhile? Does anyone know how to deal with frost burns?

Mr Gourmet also says that copper is a better material for sax necks than brass as it has a broader harmonic spectrum. So there you are then.
YC
 

Fraser Jarvis

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,912
I don't think the Cannonball necks are different materials, although they are finished differently. One neck matches the sax finish, the other is finished in frosted silver and has the octave pip on the underside. Yes, there is a difference in sound, but not on a cosmic scale.
I don't think we need to get into an argument on the percentage of difference, but having played both i found them as different as night and day...

Back to the cryogenic thing though, my domestic freezer only goes down to -18 so not quite cold enough to change the atoms? in my Barone but i have a contact at a local engineering company who use liquid nitrogen to shrink bearing's before assembly so may get him to tip a load over it and see what happens, ha, ha.
 

jonf

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,680
Back to the cryogenic thing though, my domestic freezer only goes down to -18 so not quite cold enough to change the atoms? .

Minus 400 (even using the idiot's Fahrenheit scale) doesn't make changes to the atoms in the metal. Even by the standards of Sax Gourmet muso-quackery this one is taking the ****
 

Fraser Jarvis

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,912
Minus 400 (even using the idiot's Fahrenheit scale) doesn't make changes to the atoms in the metal. Even by the standards of Sax Gourmet muso-quackery this one is taking the ****
I think that if we were able to change the atoms within a given metal then we would be able to turn lead into gold, yeah of course the guy's from another planet, but makes for entertaining reading though doesn't it?
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Subscriber
Messages
21,947
I think that if we were able to change the atoms within a given metal then we would be able to turn lead into gold, yeah of course the guy's from another planet, but makes for entertaining reading though doesn't it?

For some metals this does change the crystalline structure. BUt not brass..
 

dooce

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,421
having played both i found them as different as night and day...

Really? You found a greater difference than me then, for sure. I play the fat (silver) neck on mine, but while it does sound a bit more rock'nroll, it's mainly 'cos it just looks cooler against the black nickel body ;}

On topic though - I read the saxgourmet site for light amusement only - the bloke has zero credibility and even if he has really found the Pandoras box of sax sound, he's got a lifetimes uphill struggle now to convince anyone of it.
 

thomsax

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,927
Is the "bloke", "Mr Saxgoumet" .... the person that is writing in Saxophone Journal? I use to read his column and I like it. But I don't belive in cryogenic treatment.

Thomas
 

old git

Tremendous Bore
Messages
5,545
Wasn't there a Mouthpiece Guru who also thought he had solved all saxophone problems?

Believe there was an unhappy ending to that particular tale.
 
Top Bottom