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Saxophones Counterfeit (?) yani on eBay

Targa

Among the pigeons
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8,982
£200 would mean I own it and therefore I'm breaking the law. Ownership of counterfeit = criminal offence.

I replied: "Hi, it's a fake. It's illegal to sell counterfeit items = criminal offence. Did you know? You'll have to throw it away I'm afraid."
If selling and owning counterfeits is against the law why are Tom Keating's works in such great demand including being sold by Christie's
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
1,983
£200 would mean I own it and therefore I'm breaking the law. Ownership of counterfeit = criminal offence.
Interesting....here it wouldn't be breaking the law to own it, even if aware it's counterfeit.

Selling it hits a grey zone....law as written implies it would be but lawyers have noted in real life there are flexibilities within that.
 
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cromerblues

Member
Messages
62

Soprano saxophone OR NEAREST OFFER – Woodwind Instruments – Neath, Neath


This is the exact same yani being sold that I referred to earlier in the thread. The guy was using various monikers but always seemed to be selling because his daughter was no longer interested.....she must have tried about 6 exactly the same, but preferred piano........a big give away was starting price, plus the package offered with it and gloves, pull thru's etc. Close look suggested they were just not right. The one sold above was illegally sold, the seller must have known he bought a bummer and instead of genuinely trying for the right price was happy to move it for £500 (profit??)..........I informed Ebay about these as there were also a bunch of dodgy yamaha's on at the same time from a number of sellers with same product and different handle. Clearly they were fake but Ebay did not respond and expect a few people were stung badly. A lot of trouble gone to to make fairly decent copies at a glance and likely to newbies or starter players. Bad enough trying to work out if an expensive second hand horn plays well or just plays! As most advise, buying in the 4 figure range on ebay is risky unless you have it in your hands. Need a lot of research and knowledge to pull it off. Clarinets are easier and the prices have not gone as silly as saxes. Can still find good buys if you are prepared to put the work in. I can live with a small loss of up to £50, most of which you can retrieve if an error made. Most sellers will refund all or part if they do not understand the horn and miss cracks, break etc. These fakes though are a nuisance and take the uninformed to the cleaners. They seem to get away with it though. CAVEAT EMPTOR!!
 

JayeNM

Formerly JayePDX
Messages
1,983
Actually buying a horn on eBay at market value isn't very risky as long as the prospective buyer bones up a bit on what steps to take, what questions to ask, what guarantees need to be wrung from the seller, etc. As you say, you just gotta put a bit of work into your search.

You are correct, these sorta horns being sold as 'used but never really played' always have these sorta back-stories: "received as gift, I don't want it" "I lost interest", "my kid lost interest", etc.

Another telltale sign.....
 

cromerblues

Member
Messages
62
I still feel happier buying clarinets.........very hard to find and secure a bargain sax on ebay.....you have to be quick where the seller is not availed of the quality and maybe selling cos uncle barry died recently and is happy to take an offer. Only problem with that is that it leaves a bit of a bad feeling that you have just conned someone! I try to be honest re the work required to refurb and repair then leave it to them. I dont have the same conscience if the seller is purveying a series of horns and just trips up and doesnt see what he/she has. Part of the fun is opening the package when it arrives and hoping for a good buy!
 

DavidUK

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,073
It's tricky. The chap selling his YAS-275 at £40 the other week obviously hadn't bothered to find out what it was worth which wouldn't be very difficult. You just know he'd have been inundated by locals who can collect (but shouldn't in lockdown). Another YAS-275 yesterday at £80 sold in a few hours, probably for £80.

The YTS-23 for £100 a few months ago was being advertised by the wife of a musician who'd had no gigs since March. Having found this out I advised what it might really be worth and they readvertised.
Would I have snapped it up if it had been on my doorstep? That IS the moral dilemma. But generally if someone gets what they ask that's what they want. You could even be forgiven for "conning" a pro player out of £400 as he of all people should know what his instrument is worth whereas uncle Barry's nephew hasn't a clue (but could have).

One thing for sure... you'll never get these types of bargains on eBay.
 

cromerblues

Member
Messages
62
I agree, but I have and do with clarinets, I recently bought a B&H 8-10, Edgware and Leblanc LL for £50 all in. The guy was selling a range of saxes and clarinets and I have no idea what happened other than I think he put them in the wrong section. So, I got lucky and he sold them to me. They are all in great condition and the Leblanc is undeniably a pro instrument with the 8-10 close behind. Both of these are great players and will produce good returns with little work. Do I feel bad? No. The guy was clearly reselling kit and should have known better, if he didnt then he shouldnt be doing it. He could have withdrawn them for any number of reasons, but give him his due he honoured the sale. All very odd, but no feeling they were hooky. The value is significantly more than I paid. So there are bargains but you have to spend time and know what you are hunting. I, like you David, will write to sellers if I feel they just have it wrong and clearly are no re-selling. By and large they know nowt about instruments but are very grateful for the advice. There are plenty out there with morality issues!
 

DavidUK

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,073
I know nothing about clarinets but happened to spot a couple of Vito clarinets at £50-80 in the week. Vito saxophones were made by Yamaha and are often bargains. I suspect the same isn't true of Vito clarinets?
I can PM you links if you're interested?
 

cromerblues

Member
Messages
62
Vito clarinets are a little different. They are composite and US made generally. The saxes you refer to were either made by Yamaha or in Paris?? I believe. The Yamaha versions out of Japan are, as you say, the sought after guys? The prices you quote for the CL's is close to market value. There are not many composite models I will buy unless they are B&H better models made for bands and outdoor use usually, as Noblet have also done in the past. Thank you for considering my regarding these though. It is a different ball game with CL's, as the values are less the options and possibilities are greater. You do not generally see copies, as in the Yani's, so it all about condition and desirability. You just have to work hard and be on the ball, I have lost many that I expected to bid for and win, at the last minute, but can live with that. It's getting it badly wrong that hurts. Most people will respond if there is unseen damage that devalues and will refund some or all respectively without being asked. Not so hard nosed as the sax market. But there are many facets and hidden gems so a keen eye and zoom for the photos is key!
 
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