Chirping!

Roxers

New Member
Hi. I've been playing tenor sax for a number of years to a 'reasonable' level but for the past few months I've started 'chirping'! It's driving me mad and I can't work out what the cause is - although I assume it's me rather than my sax setup as I've tried my old sax with a different mouthpiece and reed and it's still present. I play Yamaha YTS-480 with Select Jazz 6M mouthpiece and Vandoren V16 strength 2.5/3 reeds. I attach a link to a very short Dropbox demo - in this it is always when going up to A but that isn't always the case. Thanks in advance for anything that you can suggest.
Dropbox
 
A is the point where the octave mechanism switches from body to neck. Make sure it's not stuck and is switching ok and the adjustment is right so that both can fully close when they need to.
 
A is the point where the octave mechanism switches from body to neck. Make sure it's not stuck and is switching ok and the adjustment is right so that both can fully close when they need to.
This is a really good point. @Roxers If you are sure it isn’t the reed (you do only mention trying one other so a few would be a better indicator) then it points to something like the synchronisation of the two diff ent octave pips (body and neck).

A recording of just saxophone without the backing track would be very useful so we can hear better what’s happening.
 
Thanks for all the prompt suggestions - I'll have a chance to check some out later. I should add that although it seems more common on high A, I get the chirp on all sorts of higher notes. I've found a "better" (i.e. worse!) MP3 - mind your ears! https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/anut6sn3q6cme27lehuia/Chirp-3.mp3rlkey=ckhx3voh58z1h2i62tfkekopz&st=11f3nxom&dl=0 So between C# (open fingering) and F# at the start then between two high E - which presumably eliminates fingering issues? (Though interesting that you should mention LH ring finger as that's the main arthritic one). Thanks again for your help.
 
I think it's sounds cool. When you play bigger intervals. If you play without using the okctave key is the problem still there.

Are you doing "interval" exercises? play C2 and switch to B2 and back to to C2 (liten ters). Play C2 switch to Bb 2 and back to C2 (stor sekund) and so on, down to C1 (octave). Don't use the tongue, it's legato, and control the tone with your lips and air stream. Do the same from C2 and up. This is an extension of the embouchure exercise that we call legato wo tongue (utan tunga).
 
As well as the above, make sure the reed is wet before playing. A dry reed will chirp.

Clean the mouthpiece and reset the reed making sure there's no overhang at the tip rail.

Clean the neck too.

Also check the mouthpiece position on the cork. Match the overblown long tube notes to short tube notes so that less player input is needed to correct pitch.
 
Hi @Roxers,

I'm just an amateur sax player so please don't take my comments as 'gospel' There are many other much more experienced sax players here who can give you you better advice.

I can well imagine that the 'chirping' is driving you mad! For me, it was was more pronounced on your 2nd link than on your first.

Like you, if I start getting odd 'squeaks' on high notes or have difficulty reaching the lowest notes I always initially assume that the cause is 'me' or my 'setup'. TBH I have no idea why the 'chirping' problem only arose a couple of months ago. The first thing I'd do is to get my sax checked out (just to be sure). Whenever I can't trace or fix a problem (despite adjusting/changing reeds, etc.) I've learned to at least get my sax (quickly) checked out for any leaks, the condition of pads, and that all keys (including octave) are working normally. This usually takes about 5-10 minutes. Very occasionally, my friendly 'sax repair lady' does 1 or 2 minor adjustments on the spot (5 minutes) which fixes the problem. Only once did she recommend that I get my top 3 pads replaced because they were cracked. So however the ' quick check' turned out (90% of the time 'fine, no problems'), I could be confident that the playing problem had nothing to do with my sax.

As far as 'chirping' goes - if the sax is not a contributing cause - my gut feeling is that it might have something to do with the combination of:
- your mpc (tip opening) and ligature position
- your reed (strength, selection, preparation, position on the mpc)
- your embouchure, notably, the length of the mpc/reed that you take in your mouth and the amount of pressure you exert the strength of your embouchure

So - if the sax itself is not the problem - the question is: what might have changed?

Mpc en ligature
I assume the your mpc hasn't changed. Has your ligature or ligature position?

Reeds
- Selection

We know that not all reeds of the same strength out of the same box play equally well. I once read (on the cafe) to soak them all, try them all out and to note which ones (1 or 2 from a box of 5) played OK 'out-of-the-box'.And to note what possible 'adjustments' the other 3-5 might need. Either because they're very slightly 'too thick' and need sanding' or because they're very slightly 'too thin' and might need clipping. Some reeds, which - even after adjusting - still don't play well, you might just have to throw away.

Another point on the selection of reeds is the choice of brand/model. For years, I used to play VanDoren V16 'jazz reeds' because I play jazz, right? Until I watched the video below, when I switched to the 'Java Red' series that I've used ever since. Note that I'm not saying that you should switch to any other brand/model, only that you perhaps experiment. My personal experience has been that 'Ricoh' reeds are slightly softer (easier to play 'out-of the box) than 'VanDoren' reeds (that need more 'working in' but last longer).
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aobCTn4TcE


- Preparation
Pretty much covered: soak and gradually work in the reed. Whenever you play, make sure that the reed and the mpc are wet.

-Position on the mpc
TBH, micro-adjusting the reed on the mpc is probably the most important tip that I've learned via the cafe. And I still use it in each and every rehearsal. What it boils down to is that extending the reed (by 1-2 mm or less) over the tip of the mpc makes the reed sound 'thicker'. Conversely, pushing the reed (by 1-2 mm or less) makes the reed sound 'thinner'. At every rehearsal, I adjust my reed on the mpc to get the 'optimal coverage' between the lowest and highest notes. Very occasionally, I might even tweak the reed position in preparation for a tune that I play predominantly high or low notes.

This short article (by Emeritus Professor Steven Mauk) was an eye-opener for me.

Embouchure
Only you can reflect on how your embouchure (notably the length of mpc/reed you take into your mouth) might have developed, weakened or changed during the past few months.

FWIW, my own (regular) 'squeaks and chirps' occur mainly when my embouchure eventually - after 1 1/2 hours collapses.
 
Sounds a bit different, but seems like Clarinetto Squawkeratta, has jumped species.
An Exorcism might be necessary. 🧐

If your reed, mouthpiece and horn is correct, try not using a vibrato and relax your embouchure a bit and try it again.
If still present try it with a firmer embouchure and no vibrato as well.
Try playing slower and make sure all keys close together.
Relaxed or firm, the embouchure should not leak air.

As stated, dry or stiff reed, might be an issue.
 
What I find odd about this is @Roxers tried two different setups and still got the chirp. It seems unlikely it's an equipment issue. Maybe reed placement but like he says he's been playing for years. Unless he had a long layoff it seems pretty mysterious what the cause could be.

Alien abduction?
 
Sometimes, key mechanism issues can present themselves very subtly as some herein have alluded to. It doesn't take much for them to get out of adjustment due to wear. (Also, has the sax been accidently dropped, fallen over, etc.?)

Sometimes something as simply as a cork or felt bumper / buffer (between 2 linkages to operate quietly, or between body and linkage) has fallen off, slid out of place or became heavily compressed from wear, affecting coordinating and opening / closing pads properly.

Sometimes the rubber / plastic tubing has become missing in action over a linkage pin operating or resting on a lever.

A good light source and careful operation of the keys can reveal whether they two octaves open and close properly. Ditto with the other pads and keys.

Also, I've had strange things happen, like a pad where the shellac glue holding the pad to the cup has broken loose enough to cause the pad to shift under operation, but wasn't readily evident until I took the instrument aside and made the discovery by pressing and depressing the keys in various patterns.

Plus, because of heavy use of the octave pads plus being close to the mouth becoming saturated with moisture, they seem to wear out more quickly than the other pads. I think this is why those repair kits with common pads and glue always include octave key pads. Perhaps this is why some prefer cork instead of a pad over the octave holes.

The left hand trill key pads, had one that the leather cracked but wasn't readily apparent until I got a good close eye on it. Had the same happen on one of the upper fingered pads.

Then, if you have switched between your various mouthpieces and reeds and seems consistent enough to eliminate those as the problem but still can't see elsewise why, may be a time to have a competent tech have a look at your horn. He with his trained eyes and tools can quickly notice things that escape our eyes.
 
Make sure your flip fingers are working well together. Play A2 to F#2 or any other tone on lower stack slowly and increase the speed. A2 is first tone that use octave neck key. The octave mecahnism must be well setup. I sounded in the same way on my YTS 25 but when I played F# to E, D#/Eb,D .... It was not me, it was the sax. A bad rod made the action slow and one day it was stuck so the Yam tech had to drill the rod out. According to the tech a rather common problem on YTA/S student saxes.
 
What a great bunch of sax players on here - really grateful for the many suggestions. I can confirm that the sax has been fully serviced and nothing has changed in my setup - and the problem was there when I tried my old Selmer sax with different mouthpiece and reed - so that really just leaves me ... unfortunately. I'll try the various changes to my technique that have been mentioned in the coming days and get back to you with the results. Cheers.
 
Leo P seems to know a trick how to chirp. He uses it quite a lot in his solo's. Does anyone know how to replicated this?
I get a chirp sound when finger low C (1) and press up to play C 2 still with the low C fingerings. If I do that quickly and push as well I get "chirping".
 
What a great bunch of sax players on here - really grateful for the many suggestions. I can confirm that the sax has been fully serviced and nothing has changed in my setup - and the problem was there when I tried my old Selmer sax with different mouthpiece and reed - so that really just leaves me ... unfortunately. I'll try the various changes to my technique that have been mentioned in the coming days and get back to you with the results. Cheers.
You can start with reed and ligature.

  • Maybe a thinner reed can help? Softer ..?
  • Place the end of the reed in glas of litte water. Let channels soak up water for some hours.
  • There can be some tension in the reed. Use a wetstone and file the downside of reed. Light pressure and not too much.
  • Do minor changes with the ligature. One or two millimeters, back and forward, can make a huge differences.
  • Loose or tighten the ligature screw(s).
  • A piece of "gaffa" or silver tape on the stock of the reed can also help.
I took a drop of olive oil on the table to increase the contact between the mouthpiece and reed. Nothing I recommend but I've done lots of differnt tricks over the years.
 
Just listened to the recording. You are definitely too tight with your embouchure as the sound hasn’t got that open, well, sound.

I think “chirp” and “squeak” are different too. I take chirp to be more of a sound created when the reed isn’t flat against the lay or is imbalanced. This might be a higher pitched whistle sound.

A squeak I take to be something that we create through doing something “wrong “. This is usually (always?) a higher (harmonic series) note. Usually a lot louder than the former.

The classic one on clarinet is a squeak on open G - you’ve actually hit a (flat) high D.
 
I too just listened and I agree with @Pete Effamy - too tight an embouchure, and maybe not taking in enough mouthpiece. Also it sounds like the reed is dry. You might also investigate how your ligature is placed. If too loose or too far back it might let the reed lift up from the table a bit. Note that this sounds like a reed squeal to me, not something caused by timing of fingerings.

Try the suggestions in this thread, and see which of them make a difference - let us know what if anything works 🙂
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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