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Saxophones Cannonball Run?

What

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314
Hello Everbody. I happened to mention to one of my coworkers that I am learning to play the saxophone and it turns out that he is a pro trained trumpet player. As we were talking he mentioned that his son has a saxophone brand called Cannonball and the kid never really stuck with it and he would like to make me a deal based off of what the value is on the model he has. He can't remember if its a tenor or alto, but since I do want to work on alto at some point down the road, it might work out either way. My question is do any of you know about this brand and what their quality is or at least what their reputation is. If I can get more specifics I will begin them.
 

jbtsax

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If you can find out which model Cannonball your friend has for sale, I would be happy to share my knowledge of and experience with Cannonball saxes both as a player and a repair tech who has worked on them for several years. The Cannonball headquarters is in Utah about 45 minutes from where I live, and I previously worked in the repair shop of the first Cannonball dealer in the nation. There are some differences in different years and models which is why I am asking for more information.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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In general Canonballs are ornate slightly flashy. Don't believe all you read about some of the gimmicks like semi precious stones improving the tone. Quality reports seem to be good. You can get an idea from their web site.

Some forum members have them and seem really pleased. Jbtsax's offer is a good one!
 

milandro

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2,483
don’t forget that they have lesser student lines too.

In my experience ALL upmarket Taiwanese saxophones take a MAJOR hit when sold secondhand loosing as much as 50% of their value and sometimes being offered for months and months (and not selling) if the price doesn’t drop to that level.

In the Netherlands, I might add, that the only shops which will part exchange a Cannonball are the ones that sell them new, the other shops are simply not interested.

That doesn’t mena that the horns are bad, but commercially when you buy a second hand Cannonball or P.Mauriat you are at an extra advantage point compared to buying a Yanagisawa, a Yamaha a Selmer.
 

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
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I agree with Milandro, but if you fall in love with it, no reasons not to go for it.

I happened to mention to one of my coworkers that I am learning to play the saxophone and it turns out that he is a pro trained trumpet player.
What kind of animal is a cow orker?
 

Zeus

Member
Messages
156
So what model was that Cannonball? I am also having a look at this brand as well.
 

Zeus

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Messages
156
To tell you the truth, it was some months ago that i read this exact review, if not for it, i wouldn't dare come close, especiallyy when looking for purchase No3 and scrap the first two, and now i am in search for a possible tryout. So far i hear mostly positive reactions, and that's a good thing.
Read also Dooce's posts regarding, and they also, made me feel the brand is close to, more or less in par with most of the Mauriats, except from the top range perhaps.

I would love to see a showdown Gerald Albright Alto CB vs a Mauriat 67 RUL for example, which are my two favourites of those brands so far.
 
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jbtsax

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don’t forget that they have lesser student lines too.

In my experience ALL upmarket Taiwanese saxophones take a MAJOR hit when sold secondhand loosing as much as 50% of their value and sometimes being offered for months and months (and not selling) if the price doesn’t drop to that level.

In the Netherlands, I might add, that the only shops which will part exchange a Cannonball are the ones that sell them new, the other shops are simply not interested.

That doesn’t mena that the horns are bad, but commercially when you buy a second hand Cannonball or P.Mauriat you are at an extra advantage point compared to buying a Yanagisawa, a Yamaha a Selmer.
That Taiwanese saxophones have a much lower resale value than their Japanese, French, or German counterparts is a common misconception that is frequestly passed around on saxophone forums. This may have been true at one time before the quality of saxophones from Taiwan improved, but it is no longer the case for the well know and established brands such as Cannonball and
P Mauriat. The attached file gives some recent figures to support this statement.
 

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milandro

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,483
That Taiwanese saxophones have a much lower resale value than their Japanese, French, or German counterparts is a common misconception that is frequestly passed around on saxophone forums. This may have been true at one time before the quality of saxophones from Taiwan improved, but it is no longer the case for the well know and established brands such as Cannonball and
P Mauriat. The attached file gives some recent figures to support this statement.
Might be where you are. I buy and sell several saxophones a year and know the market, where I live, very well and follow the international market too.

In my part of the world, things are exactly as I described them
 

dooce

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1,418
My support of Cannonball seems well documented then! Just to make it clear, I love my sax but I got it at a good price in immaculate condition after 6 months of very modest use. If you are buying new, I wouldn't say that CB offer greater value for money than any other "premium" Taiwanese brand. In fact if my pockets had been deeper I would have walked out of the shop with a Mauriat, not a Cannonball, but after 3 years with it, I've no regrets about the decision. Suffice to say, in my experience Cannonballs are reputable, well made and well worthy of any players consideration.
 

Zeus

Member
Messages
156
So....if in one end we have the big 4, and i bought one of the big 4, still i haven't what i am looking for, and the other end are the rest of the Asian, rest of the world that are not a Selmer, Yani, Yama, Keil....that their utterly good models are from 2-3 grand and above, whereas if you are a new buyer like me, to hunt and find out, the real bargain you either have to spend on some saxes, worth of a small car for example, or a good friend guides you to a great vintage, or you trust reviews that powerfully destroy the wannabees that are not, and the so called greats that are not, like Mr Howard's, and it's what i do now. But there are way more saxes on the market than Mr Howards reviews.

So there is no chance a second taiwanese, or chinese horn to ever sell like a Yamaha, Yani, or Selmer? Is that all the sax industry can do? Whatever has a certain brand sells best, and whatever has not...gets a 50% toll down for resale?

It's like the industry telling me, go buy a Yas 62, or a Yani 992, or a Selmer Mark VI, or ref 54...all the rest are devaluated horns, so come to us again. Cause you will not ever be able to have another horn, and stay all your life, with the cheap value you got.

And what if the market wants to move, and breathe...shouldn't the value of the saxes be more close, so as to promote Asian and rest of the world sax owners to upgrade their saxes too? If such an owner cannot get a 60% perhaps of it's value, he will not upgrade...and the market will shrink as well too, faster than lightning.

I know not many things, but i don't want to be punished for choosing an Asian horn.I have the utmost respect on Asian craftmanship, way older in time than any european, and fond of American craftmanship as well, what's made in the States, so in due time totems shall fall, or have fallen already, and the status quo cannot bear to accept it.

I see already with my newbish eyes and ears, the Big 6, and the Big 8 on the horizon.
 
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kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
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21,947
Might be where you are. I buy and sell several saxophones a year and know the market, where I live, very well and follow the international market too.

In my part of the world, things are exactly as I described them
Same in Germany - Selmer/Yamaha/Keilwerth sell for a lot more than Taiwanese saxes of the same age. Even Amati and B&S seem to have a better resale value.
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Subscriber
Messages
21,947
So....if in one end we have the big 4, and i bought one of the big 4, still i haven't what i am looking for, and the other end are the rest of the Asian, rest of the world that are not a Selmer, Yani, Yama, Keil....that their utterly good models are from 2-3 grand and above, whereas if you are a new buyer like me, to hunt and find out, the real bargain you either have to spend on some saxes, worth of a small car for example, or a good friend guides you to a great vintage, or you trust reviews that powerfully destroy the wannabees that are not, and the so called greats that are not, like Mr Howard's, and it's what i do now. But there are way more saxes on the market than Mr Howards reviews.

So there is no chance a second taiwanese, or chinese horn to ever sell like a Yamaha, Yani, or Selmer? Is that all the sax industry can do? Whatever has a certain brand sells best, and whatever has not...gets a 50% toll down for resale?

It's like the industry telling me, go buy a Yas 62, or a Yani 992, or a Selmer Mark VI, or ref 54...all the rest are devaluated horns, so come to us again. Cause you will not ever be able to have another horn, and stay all your life, with the cheap value you got.

And what if the market wants to move, and breathe...shouldn't the value of the saxes be more close, so as to promote Asian and rest of the world sax owners to upgrade their saxes too? If such an owner cannot get a 60% perhaps of it's value, he will not upgrade...and the market will shrink as well too, faster than lightning.

I know not many things, but i don't want to be punished for choosing an Asian horn.I have the utmost respect on Asian craftmanship, way older in time than any european, and fond of American craftmanship as well, what's made in the States, so in due time totems shall fall, or have fallen already, and the status quo cannot bear to accept it.

I see already with my newbish eyes and ears, the Big 6, and the Big 8 on the horizon.
The point Milandro was making is that if you take a good second hand Taiwanese, you'll get a lot more sax for your money than buying the big 4. But if you buy new Taiwanese and decide to sell you'll take a proportionally bigger hit then selling the big 4.

Remember it's the market view, not your opinion, that counts when it comes to selling. And your opinion counts only when it comes to buying... And if the market undervalues something in your view, there are bargains to be had.

Market may swing in Europe to be more like the US, when buyers and sellers realise that there's a big price difference that isn't borne out in rel quality. But when and if that'll happen is anyone's guess.
 

jbtsax

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8,010
Same in Germany - Selmer/Yamaha/Keilwerth sell for a lot more than Taiwanese saxes of the same age. Even Amati and B&S seem to have a better resale value.
I am getting the impression that the sales figures that I am finding in the U.S. don't necessarily represent the European marketplace where saxophones are concerned. If anyone could point me to some sources for sales information in Europe, I would be more than happy to crunch those numbers as well.

Also I believe it is important to consider the original selling price when determining "depreciation". For example on my chart, the average used selling price of the Selmer Reference 54 is $3,735 whereas the average used selling price of the Cannonball Vintage is $1,408---a difference of $2,327 even though the percentage drop in value is virtually the same. However when you factor in the original selling price when new the Reference 54 sold for $5,889 and the Vintage new sold for $2,200---a difference of $3,689.

Another way to look at it would be if each sax were bought new and sold a year later:

- To play a Selmer Ref 54 for one year would have cost you a total of $2,154.00 or $5.90 per day*

- To play a Cannonball Vintage for one year would have cost you a total of $792.00 or $2.17 per day*

*Unless of course it is a leap year where the amount would be .2732% less. :)
 
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What

Member
Messages
314
My support of Cannonball seems well documented then! Just to make it clear, I love my sax but I got it at a good price in immaculate condition after 6 months of very modest use. If you are buying new, I wouldn't say that CB offer greater value for money than any other "premium" Taiwanese brand. In fact if my pockets had been deeper I would have walked out of the shop with a Mauriat, not a Cannonball, but after 3 years with it, I've no regrets about the decision. Suffice to say, in my experience Cannonballs are reputable, well made and well worthy of any players consideration.
Thos is a cannonball that has been played only twice maybe. I will be getting price/ specifics in the next week. I will put up the info here once I have it. Maybe this guys kids lack of interest might be my lucky break. :thumb:
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Subscriber
Messages
21,947
I am getting the impression that the sales figures that I am finding in the U.S. don't necessarily represent the European marketplace where saxophones are concerned. If anyone could point me to some sources for sales information in Europe, I would be more than happy to crunch those numbers as well.
It's from watching/monitoring ebay, mostly Germany. But an example - a Yamaha YAS 23/25 will go for 500+ here. A Vito in new condition, also a YAS 23 went for about half that, cos the seller didn't say 'Made by Yamaha'. I recently bought an Expression tenor for 200, admittedly it needed a little work and wasn't as new, but the same thing with a Yamaha label on it would have been over 500...

But I don't keep notes of the prices of all the saxes I look at on ebay, sorry.
 

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
Cafe Moderator
Messages
12,125
Another way to look at it would be if each sax were bought new and sold a year later:

- To play a Selmer Ref 54 for one year would have cost you a total of $2,154.00 or $5.90 per day*

- To play a Cannonball Vintage for one year would have cost you a total of $792.00 or $2.17 per day*

*Unless of course it is a leap year where the amount would be .2732% less. :)
I totally agree with this approach. Percents look professional, but are not necessarily useful.
If I threw away my JP now, I would have spent something like 20c per day, Is I sold it I would even have a nominal gain (it went up in price).
The only way not to have a depreciation is to focus on the second hand market. You don't buy a new instrument because you think of reselling it. It would be a loss anyway.

In my recent search for a tenor I had about £1200 budget, that could give me (stretching it):
YTS 280
Mauriat Bravo
Second hand YTS 62 in bad conditions
Sequoia
A bunch of student horns, some of them very good.

As an economically rational choice, I should have bought the YTS62, as a "value for money" choice, my currently non resellable taiwanese Sequoia wins, as an artistic choice Sequoia again, but it is a matter of personal taste (lots of people absolutely love the 62).

Using the same scheme: To play a £1200 horn for one year and stick it in you cupboard, you would spend about £3.33 a day. Less than trying to resell a Selmer ref.54.

Disclaimer: I am a Sequoia endorser.
 
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