M/Pieces - Ligs Buzzing / resonating

Discussion in 'Saxophones & Accessories' started by MandyH, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. MandyH

    MandyH Sax-Mad fiend!

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    I have just bought a Selmer S80 C* mouthpiece for my Bari sax to replace the S80 D, and a Rovner Dark lig to replace my BG.
    (I am still trying to hit that elusive F' and thought this may help)

    On first trial, I noticed that the sax resonates or buzzes when I play D and Eb with the octave key, and it feels muffled.

    I put the old mpc/lig on to see if that was always there, and it's nothing like as obvious, but it might be there.

    Is this something that I will learn to play better, and so lose the buzzing? I only had time for a few minutes trial today.

    I've only just had the Bari serviced, so my gut instinct is that it is the mpc/lig rather than the sax.

    Any thoughts or suggestions?
     
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  3. Stephen Howard

    Stephen Howard Senior Member

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    The YBS 62 is noted for its clean and precise presentation - so the presence of a buzz indicates that something's out of whack.
    It's possible to find that some mouthpieces can accentuate the natural edginess of the 62, but neither the Selmer C* or the D are particularly fiesty pieces.

    My first suspicion would be that the octave key mech is at fault - which could mean that the double body key isn't opening enough, or that one or other of its pips is blocked....or that the crook key is opening slightly when it didn't oughta.

    The first thing to do is to try playing a mid D/Eb without the octave key on (i.e. overblow).
    The next thing to do is to pop a cigarette paper under the crook key pad, finger an octave G and see whether or not the paper can be pulled out easily (it should be quite resistant).

    Something else you can do is to get a screwdriver and check the tightness of all the guard and brace screws (and the bumper felt adjusters). No need to crank them down - just check that they're firmly screwed in. Don't forget to check the braces that are fitted across the upper bow.
     
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  4. Colin the Bear

    Colin the Bear Well-Known Member

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    Check for a wasp nest in the bow ;)
     
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  5. jbtsax

    jbtsax old and opinionated

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    Another cause for a stuffy D is a low C that isn't opening sufficiently or has a spring that is set too weak. A way to test whether you are hearing a sympathetic vibration of a loose part is to move your mouthpiece in or out and play those notes at a different pitch.
     
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  6. MandyH

    MandyH Sax-Mad fiend!

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    @Stephen Howard
    I've checked for blocked octave pips - all looks clear. The 2 that open together open a good distance (one is c4mm, the other about 8mm open) so I'd guess that isn't a problem? The single octave pop opens about 2mm.
    If I put a cigarette paper under the single crook octave pip, it is held in very tightly with no fingers on any keys (C#) and a little less tightly when I finger top G, but still pretty good resistance (I think!)
    I took a screw driver to all the key guard and brace screws, I found one on the low A cup that was way out - a couple of turns. I'm not sure whether it has worked lose or was not put back in at the service (beginning of August), anyway, I screwed it in until it stopped, but no tighter. Sadly that didn't solve anything.

    Today, however, the buzzing was more at bottom C# (both before and after any tightening of screws or other fiddlings)

    My son held down various bits for me while I played the buzzing note and the place that seemed to have most impact was the bracket (?) that the top of the 5 long rods attach to just forward of the LH pinkie table, on the front of the body between the body and the bell.
     
  7. MandyH

    MandyH Sax-Mad fiend!

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    The bottom C cup opens all the way back to the felt buffer! So (sadly) I'm guessing that isn't the problem either.

    I'll try the mouthpiece moving suggestion tomorrow, thank you.
     
  8. jbtsax

    jbtsax old and opinionated

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    Sometimes the felt bumper is adjusted too low. The low C should be about 2mm more open than the low D. If you are careful, you can turn the screw in bumper using a butter knife if you need to screw it open a bit more.
     
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  9. Stephen Howard

    Stephen Howard Senior Member

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    That's the compound bell key pillar - but the Yamaha 62 doesn't have a bracket-type pillar (it has two standard pillars with multiple heads). Bracket-type pillars, which are typically semi-circular, are sometimes held in place with a pair of screws. If these become loose, it can lead to quite a lot of rattling.

    Standard pillars don't suffer from the same potential problem, but the bell key pillars are especially prone to being knocked backwards after an impact to the bell. This often happens when the horn is in its case (I call this 'case shock').
    There's a very simple test for this; grab any of the longer key barrels (C#, B. Bb) and see if you can move them backwards (towards the bell) and forwards (towards the top bow). If all is well the barrels won't budge - but if the pillar's been knocked back you might be able to move the barrels two or three millimetres. If so, then there's your problem.

    If not...try popping a drop of oil on the barrels. If there's a bit of wear in them, they can get a bit rattley...and will sometimes buzz when you hit certain notes.
     
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  10. MandyH

    MandyH Sax-Mad fiend!

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    I've had another day of playing and wiggling!

    I have established that the 2 notes where this sympathetic resonance is most obvious is bottom C# and bottom B. C is OK, as are D and Eb (where originally I thought the problem was) and Bb and A.... And I don't believe there are any problems up the octave.

    I pushed the mpc on as far as it would go and it was still these 2 notes, I pulled it off as far as was safe, and it was still these 2 notes.

    The only long rod that I can move is the altissimo F# long rod, which moved up and down by the tiniest amount, and can also move forward & backward, but I think it only sits on a support, not running through one. All other rods do not move.

    I asked my husband to apply gentle "damping-style" pressure on anything that might be able to vibrate, such as holding cups closed, or holding the various rods still, holding all the key guards etc but nothing seemed to make the slightest bit of difference.

    If it makes any difference, I "feel" this vibration down towards the bottom bow of the sax. It sounds to me like I've left a cigarette paper in a closed key cup. (I have done this on my Alto before now, when leaving a paper in the C# cup overnight to try to resolve a sticky C# pad, and the buzzing was how I came to realise I had left the paper there)

    Sometimes, I think I have "lost my marbles!". Is it me? ....
     
  11. MandyH

    MandyH Sax-Mad fiend!

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    We are talking about the C just about on the bottom bend, aren't we?
    If so, it is open wider than the D - I can just get my little finger in the D gap, but there is a bit of spare room around my finger in the C gap.
     
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  12. Stephen Howard

    Stephen Howard Senior Member

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    You haven't left them down inside the horn again, have you?
    There's yer rattle, right there!

    Try wedging the low Eb key cup closed with a wine cork - and while it's wedged closed, get hubby to press down firmly on all the other normally closed key cups in turn.
    I know you already did this, but it could be that you're dealing with more than one problem...and I've got my eye on that low Eb.
     
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  13. kevgermany

    kevgermany ex Landrover Nut Cafe Moderator

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    Another suggestion...

    Check the bumper stops are screwed in far enough. On one sax the felt was too long, adjuster was screwed out a long way to get the right adjustment. And was barely holding in the thread. This was enough to rattle. Took me ages to find it. Trimmed the felt, screwed it in to get the opening right again. Problem solved.
     
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  14. jbtsax

    jbtsax old and opinionated

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    I love puzzles. Have you played the bari in a different room? One time at the shop we tried to chase down a buzzing vibration when a tuba was played for almost an hour. It turns out, the player was stepping outside the shop to play test right under a light fixture whose resonant frequency was the note he heard buzzing on. :)

    Also don't dismiss the rollers on the low C and Eb. They can vibrate when dry. When in doubt remove the rods and apply some light grease. I do this on every overhaul.
     
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  15. Targa

    Targa Well-Known Member

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    I thought the experts would have the right advice, I was going to say something similar to jbtsax. Last week C was giving an annoying 'buzz' and I tried all kinds of checks until I remembered it had happened before so I moved the CD player along the shelf a couple of inches and tidied up the wire. That fixed it again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017 at 6:29 PM
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  16. jbtsax

    jbtsax old and opinionated

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    I almost lost a clarinet sale one time when the student's teacher was testing the clarinet and heard an odd "pulsing" sound in the tone. It turned out she was playing directly under the ceiling fan in our dining room. I turned the fan off and sold a nice wooden clarinet which then sounded great.
     
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  17. Colin the Bear

    Colin the Bear Well-Known Member

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    :headscratch:
     
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  18. MandyH

    MandyH Sax-Mad fiend!

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    Yes, I tried a different room. We have a clock whose glass face resonates in a similar way when our quartet play in the lounge, so I thought I'd try a different room, just in case something in the usual room had decided to join in, but sadly it's not that.

    I will dig out the oil and apply a drop here and there, but given the sax had a complete strip-down service in August, and we haven't had an African summer, I'd be surprised if a lack of oil was the cause.
     
  19. MandyH

    MandyH Sax-Mad fiend!

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    thanks, they all seem in quite tight, but it was worth a try.

    I'll know lots about my Bari at this rate, even if I never resolve the "buzz"
     
  20. MandyH

    MandyH Sax-Mad fiend!

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    Will try this later - currently unable to find a cork! Since wine bottle mostly have screw tops now, I may have to ask around for a cork! :D
     
  21. nigeld

    nigeld slow learner

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    I used to get a strange resonance on certain notes. It turned out to be the springs in my Anglepoise desk lamp.

    Here is my high-tech solution:

    IMG_1534.JPG
     
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