Saxophones Brass -v- Bronze

[sizzzzler]

Hype or fact.

Anyone who says it’s subjective or try them out yourself should keep their comments to themselves.

 

[saxyjt]

I'm not sure what you're aiming at if we can't say how we feel about it...

 

[nigeld]

Hype or fact

Probably both.

Anyone who says it’s subjective or try them out yourself should keep their comments to themselves

Since there is, as far as I know, no generally accepted scientific explanation for why there should be a difference, any difference is bound to be subjective.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Whatever works is fair. Each of us have our own ears and idea of what we want to sound like. Your choice if you want to share your observations. If someone is asking for information, then some of us are willing to share our observations. The slightly negative cryptic statement above neither offers information nor asks for it. What's the purpose/point?

 

[Wade Cornell]

If this is about thinking that the material an instrument is made of makes no difference then I can, from my own experience, say that there are differences. I used to make flutes. Metal flutes have a distinctive sound. The same flute made from bamboo has a totally different tonal quality. The strangest flute I've made was solid wax, and had amazing tone that was softer and more complex than the bamboo. The same is true on a larger scale if creating sound in a building. Tile (having the hardest surface) reflects sound the most; concrete a bit less, although still loud and reflective, wood and softer materials even less. Absorbent materials, like used in sound studios, reflect almost nothing. What makes the difference between a great sounding violin and an ordinary one? They are both wood. Yes, the material your instruments is made from can have an effect on its tone. Whether that difference is noticeable to you is not the question and you may not be able to tell the difference between a student violin and a Stradivarius, but some people can.

 

[jbtsax]

On this side of the "pond" I have not heard anything about making a saxophone out of bronze as opposed to brass. It is quite well documented that the wall vibrations of woodwinds have no significant effect upon the sound waves produced unless the walls are very thin .2mm and the tube is slightly oval shaped. When instruments consisting of different wall materials "sound" different, it is very difficult to prove that it is not differences in the internal geometry that is the cause.

 

[kevgermany]

I've got a bronze tenor and various brass ones, silver plated, lacquered, no bare brass. Not one sounds the same. But whether it's materials, sax/neck design or manufacturing differences I don't know. I had a bronze sop, now have a brass one. Never tried them side by side/back to back.

I've read some of the literature on why it makes no difference, but it's scientific. Which means there's always a chance of something new being found that changes scientific opinion.

On the wax for a flute, this makes sense. Wax is not rigid the way metal and hard wood are so I'd expect it to absorb sound waves selectively by frequency.

Currently I'm in the no difference camp, as far as bronze/brass/playing are concerned, but I keep an open mind. Partly because experienced some (not all) of experienced players that I respect feel that way.

 

[Phil]

In mouthpieces it makes no difference. Ive never played a bronze horn but if its true bronze i think the cost will be high with little to gain. Bronze is a lot harder to work with. Its quite hard in comparison to brass. It strikes me as one of those marketing methods to stand out.

 

[nigeld]

My copper Sequoia soprano sax definitely sounds different from @aldevis's brass Sequoia soprano.
However, I suspect that in this case the player has more to do with it than the material. 🙂

 

[aldevis]

My copper Sequoia soprano sax definitely sounds different from @aldevis's brass Sequoia soprano.
However, I suspect that in this case the player has more to do with it than the material. 🙂

Since i like the subject and Nigel mentioned me...
Yes they do sound consistently different.
We tried some soprano neck prototypes, recently, in different materials. Personally I find some big differences, and other testers did too, maybe preferring other materials than me.
The problem is that giving a scientific reason for that is complex and expensive. Much quicker simply blowing and choosing the one that works better.

 

[Wonko]

Since i like the subject and Nigel mentioned me...
Yes they do sound consistently different.
We tried some soprano neck prototypes, recently, in different materials. Personally I find some big differences, and other testers did too, maybe preferring other materials than me.
The problem is that giving a scientific reason for that is complex and expensive. Much quicker simply blowing and choosing the one that works better.

I'm all for a scientific approach.
But how do you test for something like "tonal quality" or "tonal coloration" or a "rich, warm sound", ..... These are vague concepts that are hard to define in a scientific way. You could possibly approach it using an frequency analysis or something along those lines. But my guess is, that these approaches won't (completely) get the difference that may he heard (at least by some people).

 

[thomsax]

Probably a stupid question: when we use the word copper in saxophone manufactoring is it 100 % copper, phosphor bronse ( 94,8 % copper, 5 % tin , 0,2 % phosphorus) ......... ?

 

[aldevis]

I'm all for a scientific approach.
But how do you test for something like "tonal quality" or "tonal coloration" or a "rich, warm sound", ..... These are vague concepts that are hard to define in a scientific way. You could possibly approach it using an frequency analysis or something along those lines. But my guess is, that these approaches won't (completely) get the difference that may he heard (at least by some people).

It's not just "heard" but also "felt" by the player, the ultimate buyer.
It's a combination of things, quite hard to formalise, when many variables come to play

In our specific, I prefer a "colourful" sound, while other players prefer a "locked in" tuning.
The poor maker has to please both the classical player that does estreme sopranic endurance performances on a 5 mouthpiece, and the lost jazzer blowing a 12 piece.

 

[aldevis]

My copper Sequoia soprano sax definitely sounds different from @aldevis's brass Sequoia soprano.
However, I suspect that in this case the player has more to do with it than the material. 🙂

Probably a stupid question: when we use the word copper in saxophone manufactoring is it 100 % copper, phosphor bronse ( 94,8 % copper, 5 % tin , 0,2 % phosphorus) ......... ?

Nigel's horn is the K91 model.
91% Kupfer (copper in German)

 

[Stephen Howard]

Probably best to cut out the 'middlemen' and just ask the manufacturers what they think. After all - they ought to know.

 

[thomsax]

Nigel's horn is the K91 model.
91% Kupfer (copper in German)

Thanks. I think it's phosphor bronse. The alloy phosphor bronse (we call it also "maskin brons" in Sweden). The phosphor is used to help up the melting process. The phosphor bronse is a sturdy alloy. Not so many dents and it also stays in shape.

 

[aldevis]

Thanks. I think it's phosphor bronse. The alloy phosphor bronse (we call it also "maskin brons" in Sweden). The phosphor is used to help up the melting process. The phosphor bronse is a sturdy alloy. Not so many dents and it also stays in shape.

I can ask, but I seem to remember that K91 it's still brass (Cu&Zn) rather than Bronze (Cu&Sn)
Alto has a Cu&Ni neck available too

Of course experimentation is also limited to the availability of materials in reasonable quantities for prototypes.

Probably best to cut out the 'middlemen' and just ask the manufacturers what they think. After all - they ought to know.

I do a lot of testing for the manufacturer, even if I don't know or can't reveal some technical details.

 

[aldevis]

Of course experimentation is also limited to the availability of materials in reasonable quantities for prototypes.

And cost. if some material is too expensive (like silver) we wouldn't even think of it.
Instruments have still to be sellable.

 

[Pete Thomas]

And cost. if some material is too expensive (like silver) we wouldn't even think of it.
Instruments have still to be sellable.

But there is also a prestige market. My rampone has a bronze body and Solid silver bell, althoiugh those aren't the reasons I bought it. I think Claudio at Rampone does thing those materials can make a difference, but I have yet to hear any proff - for me it's just a good horn.

 

[baritonesax]

Everything makes a difference to the sound and response of an instrument - it's just a question of whether it's apparent to the player or not. My alternative musical ego is as a bass trombonist. I play, like many other trombonists, modular instruments - in my case made by Michael Rath in Huddersfield. Broadly speaking, you can easily swap out almost any component for another made of a different alloy / metal. These make a very appreciable difference to how the instrument responds. It's very obvious to the player that these different components make a difference - even the bell section.

It follows then, that you should see at least some of the same behaviour from saxes - it's just that there are no modular saxes to test this thesis.

Bill