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Bottom B Problem

gladsaxisme

gladsaxisme

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I'm struggling to get a clean bottom Bb on my YAS 62 but have noticed that B is fine when you press for it only on the pinky table but when you go for Bb it isn't closing the B properly and it seems to be closing back first and leaving quite a gap at the front,but it's no where near as noticeable when when you just use the B key though there is the slightest of gaps at the front when pressed gently.Also the B key seems low on the pinky table but is in line with the G# key,the Bb and C# sit higher,
I do have a problem sometimes when taking the sax off it's Hercules sax stand, the lower support yoke sometimes catches under the long key guard and can occasionally hang from the sax and its in the area of the B key so I'm wondering if it has bent the arm slightly on B key.
How do you achieve the regulation between the B and Bb keys and how would you put more bend on the key arm to close the front sooner,any help much appreciated
 
jbtsax

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It sounds as if the there is a bit of misalignment of the body and bell which can cause the bell keys to contact in either the back or front first. There is a flat tab beneath the low B touch piece that extends under the Bb touch. It should have a layer of felt on the top. To regulate the Bb/B closing this tab is bent slightly up or down using smooth flat bill pliers. It is important that the Bb and B seat perfectly independently first before trying to regulate the two.

I would suggest taking it to a tech rather than trying to do it yourself because of the bell-body misalignment.
 
gladsaxisme

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Thanks a lot John I hadn't even considered the likely hood of of bell misalignment, the Bb key closes perfectly and I thought they would both be affected, but I doubted that the pick up on the sax stand would have bent the key arm, I thought regulation might be as you have described there does seem to be quite a big gap between the back of the Bb key and the tab and wondered if perhaps some cork or the likes was missing, have you any thoughts on the low B key touch....thanks again ......John
 
Colin the Bear

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The LH pinky table is a pain to regulate. My Baritone got knocked over and landed on it. Took me about a month of little tweaks to get it to settle down. It's OK now but just slightly out of position. I'm putting up with it because I don't want to start all that faffing again.

Have a look for missing corks felts etc before starting to bend anything. Have a good look before doing anything. Diving in with the right solution for the wrong diagnosis can take longer than a slow methodical look see.

The stand may not have moved the key arm but may have moved the whole bell. Have a good look.
 
jbtsax

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Thanks a lot John I hadn't even considered the likely hood of of bell misalignment, the Bb key closes perfectly and I thought they would both be affected, but I doubted that the pick up on the sax stand would have bent the key arm, I thought regulation might be as you have described there does seem to be quite a big gap between the back of the Bb key and the tab and wondered if perhaps some cork or the likes was missing, have you any thoughts on the low B key touch....thanks again ......John

I may have misunderstood your description of the problem. If the Bb is perfect, the bell to body alignment should be all right. Another thing that can keep the low B from closing all the way is the adjustment of the arm that closes the low C#. You may want to back that adjusting screw out a few turns and try closing the B with the key on the pinky table. If it closes nicely, then you can go about adjusting the low Bb to close the B. Once that is done, then readjust the closing screw so that there is just a tiny bit of movement in the C# key when you press the C# touch with the B held down.
 
gladsaxisme

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The LH pinky table is a pain to regulate. My Baritone got knocked over and landed on it. Took me about a month of little tweaks to get it to settle down. It's OK now but just slightly out of position. I'm putting up with it because I don't want to start all that faffing again.

Have a look for missing corks felts etc before starting to bend anything. Have a good look before doing anything. Diving in with the right solution for the wrong diagnosis can take longer than a slow methodical look see.

The stand may not have moved the key arm but may have moved the whole bell. Have a good look.

Thanks Colin I have never messed very much with the pinky table because I have suspected it's as you say quite complicated the only time I did was on the Bari I owned for a while when it had an annoying squeak when using it, turned out to be one of the interconnecting bits underneath where a little plastic rubbing strip was causing the noise and a feel of sticking, the slightest bit of Vaseline to lubricate sorted it.
I am a bit concerned about how the four keys are sitting in relation to one another on the table but it's never had a knock and maybe it's quite normal.
I always try to sort things out with my eyes first before diving in with my hands,always best to understand what's going on.
Luckily it's not a key I use too much when playing mainly used when doing practice pieces so I can take my time with it but I am tempted to take it in to a tech to have a look at and this sax stand thing is a bit of a nuisance, I might look into altering it in some way so it doesn't happen again,maybe open the yoke a bit so it doesn't end up under the key guard, it's funny really because when you put the sax on to the stand it has a tendency to lean that way ........John
 
gladsaxisme

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I may have misunderstood your description of the problem. If the Bb is perfect, the bell to body alignment should be all right. Another thing that can keep the low B from closing all the way is the adjustment of the arm that closes the low C#. You may want to back that adjusting screw out a few turns and try closing the B with the key on the pinky table. If it closes nicely, then you can go about adjusting the low Bb to close the B. Once that is done, then readjust the closing screw so that there is just a tiny bit of movement in the C# key when you press the C# touch with the B held down.

Thank John I had noticed the adjusting screw and wondered if it might be part of the problem but my main thoughts are that the sax never goes out of the house and doesn't get any rough treatment and all used to work perfectly so maybe the sax stand thing has done something untoward to the sax, I am now tempted to take it in to a tech for an opinion.....John
 
Chris J

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Did not see a reply to CtB's question - are there any apparent missing corks or felt in the left little finger table?

Chris
 
gladsaxisme

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Did not see a reply to CtB's question - are there any apparent missing corks or felt in the left little finger table?

Chris

Sorry but I didn't see Colin's advice about looking for missing corks or felt as a question, I always tend to do this as it's an easy fix if that is the problem, but in this case there were no obvious missing bits of this nature around other than the tab that operates the B when you press the Bb doesn't appear to have any cushioning material on it, but I doubt that a slight bit of felt will make the difference to close the B fully but I might be wrong
 
Chris J

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If the metal of that tap hits metal of the key above, then almost certainly some sort of silencing, spacing material is missing.

It might only be 0.4 mm, but that would be enough to stop the pad sealing.
Do you have some cigarette papers handy?

If we make an assumption that the linkage is the problem, as both pads do seal independently, then when pads are sealing, is there a gap, felt with the cigarette paper, between the tab and the key it should touch?

If so, fill that gap progressively (easiest to use that you may have to hand is little bits of the sticky part of a post-it note, as they stay where you put them, can add to the height, and don't leave any stickiness behind to clean, afterwards).

If you get to the point when the pads close as they should do, then you have the problem diagnosed.

Chris
 
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Chris J

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If you do establish that some spacing material solves your problem (on the tab, or where the tab hits), then you just need to glue some cork thick enough to fill the gap. If you are not happy bending metal, then just use a slight oversized cork, and sand it down to size with a narrow strip of fine wet and dry paper, all keys assembled, testing as you go.

If it is nothing to do with the tab, and lost motion, then at least somone else may find this useful if they search with a similar problem!

I got tired with scraps of cork, testing to see what size I needed in various parts of the sax, so I made up some feeler gauges gluing cork to split clarinet reeds...



Chris
 
kevgermany

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What a good idea, I'm going to do that this weekend.
 
kevgermany

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Sorry but I didn't see Colin's advice about looking for missing corks or felt as a question, I always tend to do this as it's an easy fix if that is the problem, but in this case there were no obvious missing bits of this nature around other than the tab that operates the B when you press the Bb doesn't appear to have any cushioning material on it, but I doubt that a slight bit of felt will make the difference to close the B fully but I might be wrong

I think Chris has just what you need in his answer - it expands on what Colin said. And the small gap you're complaining about is exactly the problem, which is why JBT mentioned bending. The way the arms work, a fraction of a millimeter in the table translates into millimeters at the pad.
 
Colin the Bear

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I've just replaced that very cork on my alto. Who knows where it went.
 
gladsaxisme

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SORTED !!!!
:thanks1:


Thanks John Colin and Chris for your advises and specially you Chris for giving me a gentle kick up the rear to go back to the tab on the B key,I had another look and decided to put some cork on it and HEY PRESTO Bb is now sharp as a razor, I love your idea of the cork feeler gauges .....John
 
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gladsaxisme

gladsaxisme

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I think Chris has just what you need in his answer - it expands on what Colin said. And the small gap you're complaining about is exactly the problem, which is why JBT mentioned bending. The way the arms work, a fraction of a millimeter in the table translates into millimeters at the pad.

Yes he did indeed and I got it sorted in no time but although it's working fine I'm left feeling that the B pad is not closing as it should still tending to be back first by a small amount, or perhaps just not closing fully at the front now I'm wondering if the sax stand has somehow bent the very front of the pad cup up slightly, but at least it's working fine now ....John
 
Chris J

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So depending on the extent of the back hitting the tone hole first, you can either float the pad, or angle the pad cup forward. Remembering that you only need to move half the gap, because the back will change as much as the front.

If the pad seals, but needs a firmer grip, then it may just be a matter of floating the pad. It may have been like that before, but your cork (that you have replaced) may have been thicker, and able to exert more pressure.

When changing the angle of the pad cup, I use dental forceps, which are perfect for the job!



 

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