Borgani Tenor Saxophone - Semitone Flat Part 2 - Divergent Tuning

[Danielepaolo]

Hi all. I recently posted a question about a Borgani instrument that was a semitone flat. Their has been some progression (all negative) since I last posted. I have started a new thread because the previous thread has some good information in it about how to get an instrument in tune. Unfortunately, as my son has explained to me, the information provided was known to him and not helpful in this situation.

I originally reported the Borgani was a semitone flat. Which is correct - in the lower registers. In fact, my son now informs me that the tuning is divergent which (as he has been trying to explain to me) means that the tuning of the instrument is flat in the lower registers, in tune somewhere in the middle and sharp in the upper registers. He has been telling me since day 1 that this is because the tune holes are misplaced, i.e. it is a manufacturing defect. I have since had this confirmed by experts in the field who perform instrument servicing and repair (Owinds in Australia).

Note that my son on his original assessment had checked the tune with keys in the lower registers only which is why I thought it was flat only although he knew different. My son, and the service agent, have both now shown me how the instrument is divergent when checking through the whole register. I should have given him more credit.

I have tried to speak to Borgani but have not yet had a reply. It is a 90's instrument but nonetheless, I believe Borgani should replace it because it was like this when it left their showroom. Any thoughts?

 

[Greg Strange]

Have you discussed this situation with the previous owner? Did they (the previous owner) have any problems with the instrument? Have you tried different mouthpieces on the horn? Different reeds or ligatures? Tried the mouthpieces at various positions on the neck?

Greg S.

 

[Danielepaolo]

I am speaking with previous owner now, It was his dad's who has passed away so his knowledge of the instrument is limited.

There is no fix to the issue. Neck fitting, key heights, different players, mouthpieces etc have all been checked and issue is a manufacturing fault that can't be rectified. Tuning is too far out and divergent, so if you fix your setup to stop the instrument being flat in the lower registers (which is difficult because of how flat it is) then you make the upper register even sharper.

 

[JayeNM]

It is completely unrealistic to expect Borgani to replace an instrument from the 90's which was purchased second-hand by your family.

You can inquire, you can certainly bring it to their attention and even possibly get into an interesting conversation...

But it would be a bit unrealistic to assume they would feel any obligation to replace a second-hand purchased 25+year old horn of theirs.

I would actually love to hear their reply regarding misplaced toneholes, however.

Have you folks considered actually playtesting replacement necks ? The 'wrong neck' can result in divergent tuning as you describe.

Rather than the toneholes actually being fabricated to incorrect specifications (yes possible but still IMHO a hecka outlier), I just wonder if perhaps the neck to body match got bodged, somehow.....

That various players have tested it and gotten the same results, as you mention, would certainly suggest somethings up with a piece of the hardware...

(I also second Greg's query: but unfortunately...we will never know that answer since the previous owner/player is deceased.)

Sorry for the pickle you folks are in, here, truly.

 

[JayeNM]

Also... Daniel, initially the problem was described as something different (in other thread): namely, the horn played in tune with itself but was in all registers playing flat.

Thus the replies and debates which ensued in that thread.

So...now, upon further inspection and testing and clarfication....that turned out not to be the case, yes ? Because somewhere along the way, it wasn't communicated that the playtest resulting in 'flatness' was in lowest register only ?

 

[Greg Strange]

There is various articles on "MusicMedic" website about saxophone intonation, tuning etc and below is one article...

Tuning a Saxophone: Part 1

I also believe 'crescents' can be inserted into the tone holes of the instrument to correct any tuning issues. Maybe Jaye, Steve Howard or John from Utah can shed some light on these devices...

Greg S.

 

[Greg Strange]

Also I can't see Borgani as a company selling a defective instrument, you would think they would play test the instrument before leaving the factory - I believe they make about 350 instruments per year so they have plenty of time on hands to get it right...

Good luck if you can get a free tenor sax from Borgani - I would go for the Joe Lovano model...

Greg S.

 

[JayeNM]

It's possible of course for a factory to let a Lemon slip out, it certainly happens.

But to have produced a body tube that ersatz on a model described by Borgani as one of their best sellers of the time...

....darn irregular, I say !

My question is just: given the attributes of this horn...is 'misplaced toneholes' the only valid explanation ?

I have had folks come to me with horns which were wildly out of tune up and down, in a way similar to what is being described here...and it ended up being that the neck on their horn was in fact, unoriginal

This neck seems to be a Borg neck for sure, but ....is it the right Borg neck for that body ????

 

[jbtsax]

Tone holes that are located too high or too low will have the same effect on that particular note regardless of which register it is in.

The only acoustic principle that I know of that would cause the upper register to be sharp in comparison to the low register would be the degree of taper of the body tube. A greater taper making the instrument more "conical" will cause the harmonic intervals to be too narrow making them flatter as they go higher. Less taper making the instrument more "cylindrical" will cause the harmonic intervals to be too wide making them sharper as they go higher. This second example would create the tuning issues described in this thread.

The same principle applies to the taper of the neck, but in my experience a more limited range of notes are affected. One particular True Tone alto neck that I sent to Mark Aaron to re-taper played just the notes high A to C# too sharp. The pitch of the notes G and lower were within an acceptable range, and the palm key notes could be adjusted by key height. Giving the front portion of the neck a greater taper did not completely solve the tuning problem, but made those notes easier to lip, or "voice" to be better in tune.

The way to test this is to have an experienced player play the overtones while fingering low Bb and have a second person record the pitch as each harmonic is played. If the intervals of these harmonics are either too wide or too narrow, that will be a good indication that it is the taper of the body tube that is the problem and not the placement of the toneholes.

 

[nigeld]

I believe Borgani should replace it because it was like this when it left their showroom. Any thoughts?

Looking at it purely from Borgani's point of view, your claim is that they manufactured an instrument with a major defect that makes it unplayable, but that nobody noticed this for the first 20 years of its life. (Or maybe they did notice it but didn't do anything about it.) Frankly, if I were them, I would reply that the warranty expired a long time ago. At best, they might ask you to return it to the factory in Italy for inspection, but this could be very expensive, since Italian sales tax and/or import duty would quite likely be charged in addition to the postage.

If Borgani have an agent in Australia, then you could try contacting them, but I think you need to talk to the seller about returning the sax.

However, we still have the issue that some technical experts on this forum do not see how your description of the problem would be caused by your diagnosis of the cause. Is there another repair person you could take it to? Or you could try posting on Sax On The Web to see if there is anyone else in Australia with the same model as yours, in order to compare them.

 

[nigeld]

@Danielepaolo - Now that the mouthpiece is correctly positioned on the neck, how much is the saxophone sharp/flat throughout its range?

 

[Wonko]

<SNIP>This neck seems to be a Borg neck for sure, but ....is it the right Borg neck for that body ????

My first thoughts when I read this was along the lines of "you will be assimilated; resistance is futile "
I guess my mind wasn't fully in sax-mode ..... ;-)

 

[JayeNM]

My first thoughts when I read this was along the lines of "you will be assimilated; resistance is futile "
I guess my mind wasn't fully in sax-mode ..... ;-)

Myyyyeah....It really stinks when Borg slaps the wrong neck on the body, lemme tell ya'...happened to a friend of mine once, in the Delta Quadrant...

 

[JayeNM]

Tone holes that are located too high or too low will have the same effect on that particular note regardless of which register it is in.

The only acoustic principle that I know of that would cause the upper register to be sharp in comparison to the low register would be the degree of taper of the body tube. A greater taper making the instrument more "conical" will cause the harmonic intervals to be too narrow making them flatter as they go higher. Less taper making the instrument more "cylindrical" will cause the harmonic intervals to be too wide making them sharper as they go higher. This second example would create the tuning issues described in this thread.

Question, JB: might a poor octave pip location also cause this (or 'some of this') ?

A greater taper making the instrument more "conical" will cause the harmonic intervals to be too narrow making them flatter as they go higher. Less taper making the instrument more "cylindrical" will cause the harmonic intervals to be too wide making them sharper as they go higher. This second example would create the tuning issues described in this thread..

Interesting. So, assuming the neck is the correct neck for this model, could a solution be to install something in the upper end of the body tube to reduce the volume of the tube up there ? Or is that too simplistic ?

The same principle applies to the taper of the neck, but in my experience a more limited range of notes are affected. One particular True Tone alto neck that I sent to Mark Aaron to re-taper played just the notes high A to C# too sharp. The pitch of the notes G and lower were within an acceptable range, and the palm key notes could be adjusted by key height. Giving the front portion of the neck a greater taper did not completely solve the tuning problem, but made those notes easier to lip, or "voice" to be better in tune.

Also interesting...

 

[JayeNM]

And question for @Danielepaolo : Did the horn display this attribute when the second register was played by overblowing (i.e. playing the second octave WITHOUT using the octave key) ?

You may perhaps need to ask the tech whether he/she did that.

May be germane...maybe not....

 

[JayeNM]

Looking at it purely from Borgani's point of view, your claim is that they manufactured an instrument with a major defect that makes it unplayable, but that nobody noticed this for the first 20 years of its life. (Or maybe they did notice it but didn't do anything about it.) Frankly, if I were them, I would reply that the warranty expired a long time ago. At best, they might ask you to return it to the factory in Italy for inspection, but this could be very expensive, since Italian sales tax and/or import duty would quite likely be charged in addition to the postage.

If Borgani have an agent in Australia, then you could try contacting them, but I think you need to talk to the seller about returning the sax.

This is likely what Borgani would do. Add to that another reason: they have/had no obligation to you, second-hand owners.

Perhaps no harm in asking, tho. As long as it is posed respectfully, of course.

And honestly, we really do NOT know whether the previous owner played it in tune or whether he struggled with it, ultimately realized there was a problem, and put it away...

It's also a little hard to draw any conclusions that the seller, a relative of the deceased player, might or might not have had any idea there was an issue with the horn.

IF you, the new owners, were in Italy, actually...it would have been worth an appointment and road trip to Borgani...again if not for an ultimate solution, at least for a very interesting sax experience. Face to face, perhaps some sort of something which moved towards a solution could be discussed. If no solution, then at least an answer to several questions which folks here can only speculate on.

But given the distance...plus the inconvenience of actually putting the horn into their hands...I have doubts the company would be responsive to what you (OP) are proposing.

Therefore, a path of perhaps trying to figure out if some sort of mod can be made on your home soil (whether neck or body or whatever), may bear more fruit.

Or just sell it and disclose the intonation issues which are present. Yes, you'll lose $ but you can at least recoup a bit....

 

[Colin the Bear]

Some saxophones take a great deal of input from the player. Saxophones don't play in tune. You have to make them. The right mouthpiece, which will vary from player to player, will help to mitigate this input. Different reeds may also help, however it takes quite a while to learn the anomalies of an individual horn even with a perfect set up.

With the lower register in tune the player needs to pull down using embouchure, oral cavity, airstream and voicing to keep the upper register close to the correct pitch. D2 is always noticeably sharp. It's up to the player to voice this note.

I would advise your son, as many have been advised, to put away the tuner, play the horn frequently, at least two hours a day and experiment with reeds and possibly a more suitable mouthpiece.

It's easy to become convinced that the horn is at fault and once this belief is embedded in a player all confidence in the horn is lost and the belief produces the result. We have all been there. Checking the horn against a tuner and being shocked how far off pitch we are.

Again...the player needs to put the tuner away and use ears. Part of the personality of the saxophone is its idiosyncratic tuning. Each horn has its own personality. This personality needs to be matched to the players ability and preference. Maybe this horn isn't for him. It doesn't make it a bad horn.

The saxophone is a frustrating, annoying, imperfect obsession. Welcome to my world.

 

[JayeNM]

Also: People have a tendency to gloss over or past informational links others may have offered at times. I know I do this, sometimes.

This one here is worth reading. It echoes some of what JB is talking about....

There is various articles on "MusicMedic" website about saxophone intonation, tuning etc and below is one article...

Tuning a Saxophone: Part 1

 

[JayeNM]

It's easy to become convinced that the horn is at fault and once this belief is embedded in a player all confidence in the horn is lost and the belief produces the result. We have all been there.

This is a valid point and IMHO, I have sensed this dynamic since the opening post in the first thread: OP's son latched on to ONE explanation of the sax's apparent problem and has remained latched onto it for weeks, it seems.

While at this point, it actually appears (both from JB's comments and Curt's article) that the 'tonehole misplacement' hypothesis would not produce the specific problems reported.

It's sort of a situation where a researcher has a hunch what the answer might be....but still has to do the experiment. In such an instance, it's hecka important for the researcher/experimenter to remain completely objective that the 'answer' may NOT be what his hunch is. Because doing an experiment with the intention of concluding you are correct...isn't the most objective methodology...

 

[jbtsax]

Question, JB: might a poor octave pip location also cause this (or 'some of this') ?

Interesting. So, assuming the neck is the correct neck for this model, could a solution be to install something in the upper end of the body tube to reduce the volume of the tube up there ? Or is that too simplistic ?
Also interesting...

I am certainly not an acoustics expert, but I have read enough to know that "everything affects everything". By that I mean that making even small changes inside the bore which may help the pitch of some notes can also have a negative effect upon others depending upon the location of nodes and anti-nodes. The bottom line is that there are no easy or simple solutions.

No offense to the OP, but I am not convinced that we are yet getting completely accurate information. By that I mean that it is not uncommon for the high register to be sharp in relation to the low register which can often be attributed to "pilot error" including "biting" for the high notes and loosening the embouchure for the low notes. It can also be a symptom of playing too high on the input pitch to begin with or a mouthpiece having an "effective volume" that does not match the bore and taper of the instrument. Having the "middle register" of the saxophone play well in tune when the other registers are out is the part that puzzles me the most.

I would like to see a performance major or professional player play a chromatic scale the entire range of the saxophone up and down while an assistant records the + or - cents for each note. With that data and the pitch the saxophone's length is initially tuned to it would be more likely that an accurate diagnosis of the problem could be determined and a corrective course of action found.