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Beginner Sax Beyond Jupiter?

DrSaxnoob

Senior Member
Messages
37
Locality
Sweden
Hi all,

new to the forum and quite new to the saxophone too ...

I have been renting a Jupiter JTS-587 sax for just over half a year now, since I started playing the sax. I have decided I want to move on and develop, and I’m taking regular private lessons (every 2nd week). I have the opportunity to buy this 587, but I’m a bit hesitant, as Jupiter’s reputation seems to be a bit divided. (For example I've not seen it being recommended in any of the beginner sax thread on this forum.)

Would you recommend the JTS-587 as a good sax for my future development, or is it bettar to aim for something else? If so: any recommendations? The absolute price is not that important, more important is value for money at a level I can appreciate as a beginner-aiming-for-intermediate.

I’m a late comer to this (44 yrs old), I play about 30–60 minutes per day, lessons every other week; I guess you could describe me as fairly dedicated. I mainly play jazz.
 
I have played a very small number of Jupiter saxes, and I didn't like any of them. But that's just me.

It's a very good idea to try out as many saxes as possible if you can, because they feel different, and what suits one of us may not feel at all good to you.

Second-hand saxes are usually better value for money than new ones because you don't pay for the first-year depreciation; but some people prefer new. So one question is whether you want a shiny new sax or are happy with an older one with "character" (i.e. a few scratches).

Another question is whether you want to get a "vintage" sax. I recommend against - they have their charm, but are not ideal for relative newcomers - the ergonomics can be odd, and the tuning can be dodgy.

Personally, I would recommend a second-hand Yamaha or Yanagisawa - they are very well-built.
 
Thanks for this. I could very well go with a used sax, not that many on the market around here, though. And with a narrow frame of reference so far, I'm not sure I'm the best person to test and evaluate a used sax. But if my local brick and mortar shop has a 2nd hand sax available, that'd be an option.

Of course, another option could be to go dirt cheap at this point in time (e.g. sax.co.uk's Sakkusu), but I have no idea whatsoever about the quality of those. But as you say, avoiding the initial depreciation is of course a good thing.
 
As far as getting someone to evaluate a second hand instrument, why not give it to your teacher to try. He won't want you to buy a duff sax as you'll stop playing and he'll lose his £30 a fortnight.

Where do you live Dr S. It may be worth travelling to sax.co.uk, or Hansons or Woodwind Exchange in West Yorkshire, to try everything they have in your price range.
 
As far as getting someone to evaluate a second hand instrument, why not give it to your teacher to try. He won't want you to buy a duff sax as you'll stop playing and he'll lose his £30 a fortnight.

Trouble is, if I but it from a person, I'd likely not be able to try it out at all – Sweden is just a bit longish :) And in town, well, there's one shop – and guess who works there ...

Where do you live Dr S. It may be worth travelling to sax.co.uk, or Hansons or Woodwind Exchange in West Yorkshire, to try everything they have in your price range.

I live in southern Sweden, but hopefully I'll be able to fit in a business trip to London soon :)
 
Hi Dr.S, welcome to the Café :)
In your first post you have said that you'd like to move on and develop ... so why would you consider buying the rented Jupiter? I would recommend a Yamaha as a better sax for an enthusiastic beginner because it's a good quality brand and has an affordable range of instruments which will see you through a good few years, sounding good whilst you develop.
 
Hi Dr.S, welcome to the Café :)

Thanks!

(Hm, Dr.S, good stage name ... Will save that one up for later ;) )

In your first post you have said that you'd like to move on and develop ... so why would you consider buying the rented Jupiter? I would recommend a Yamaha as a better sax for an enthusiastic beginner because it's a good quality brand and has an affordable range of instruments which will see you through a good few years, sounding good whilst you develop.

Yup, everything seems to point towards Yamaha, or possibly Yanagisawa, as a better option. So ... atm it looks like I'll continue renting the Jupiter until a good used sax of either of those brands turns up.
 
According to the web, the i.K.Gottfried shop in Copenhagen sells Yamaha tenor saxes.
But their website doesn't show much choice in tenors at the lower-cost end.

In London you can go to Sax.co.uk and/or Howarth and try as many saxes as you can cope with.
Personally I like Howarth - old-fashioned and less overwhelming, but they don't have anything like as big a range of instruments. It's worth keeping an eye on their second-hand instrument list.
 
The 587 isn't bad as a starter horn. They used to be pretty awful, but the build quality seems to have got better in recent years. About the only problem that comes up consistently is that the pads are inclined to be a bit sticky.
And the factory setup is usually way too high and heavy (easy enough to have tweaked).

If you're still using the mouthpiece that came with the horn, bin it and buy a half decent one (such as a Yamaha 3c or 4c). It'll be a huge improvement.

As for upgrading, there's little point in taking a sideways step - so your bottom line would have to be something like a Yamaha 280 or a TJ SR. Anything above that would be a bonus, but not really necessary.
The Jupiter is a pretty capable horn, but given the amount you're playing I'd say you're a prime candidate for a better horn.
 
The 587 isn't bad as a starter horn. They used to be pretty awful, but the build quality seems to have got better in recent years. About the only problem that comes up consistently is that the pads are inclined to be a bit sticky.
And the factory setup is usually way too high and heavy (easy enough to have tweaked).

Thanks for this; sticky pads are indeed an issue ... From the serial number it looks like a 2014 sax (it begins with "P").

Could you please explicate a bit on the factory set up issue?
 
Factory setups tend to be geared more towards ease of production rather than getting the best out of a horn.
The action is usually set quite high (the distance the pads are from the toneholes) and the tension on the springs is set quite heavy (which determines how much force is required to close a key).

A high action can make a horn sound bright and punchy - which sounds quite impressive when trying it out in a shop - but it does so at the expense of finesse, and of speed.
A heavier action is useful for hiding small problems with the pads (you have to press harder to close the pads), such as minor leaks and/or sticking. It's also good for complete beginners, who tend to fumble quite a bit.

Lowering the action slightly and slackening off the spring tension can transform the way a horn feels and plays. For a pro player on a pro horn it makes the instrument more transparent - but even for a beginner it'll aid precision over difficult combinations of notes.

Not that there any hard and fast rules - because some players prefer a high and heavy action, just as some prefer a high and light one, or a low and heavy one etc.
But at an educated guess I'd say that your horn could have 2mm shaved off the height off the action, and about 15% taken off the spring tension...and you'd be amazed at the results.
 
Factory setups tend to be geared more towards ease of production rather than getting the best out of a horn.
The action is usually set quite high (the distance the pads are from the toneholes) and the tension on the springs is set quite heavy (which determines how much force is required to close a key).

A high action can make a horn sound bright and punchy - which sounds quite impressive when trying it out in a shop - but it does so at the expense of finesse, and of speed.
A heavier action is useful for hiding small problems with the pads (you have to press harder to close the pads), such as minor leaks and/or sticking. It's also good for complete beginners, who tend to fumble quite a bit.

Lowering the action slightly and slackening off the spring tension can transform the way a horn feels and plays. For a pro player on a pro horn it makes the instrument more transparent - but even for a beginner it'll aid precision over difficult combinations of notes.

Not that there any hard and fast rules - because some players prefer a high and heavy action, just as some prefer a high and light one, or a low and heavy one etc.
But at an educated guess I'd say that your horn could have 2mm shaved off the height off the action, and about 15% taken off the spring tension...and you'd be amazed at the results.

Again, thank you so much! Some things to consider if I decide to stay with the Jupiter ...
 
[QUOTE="Stephen Howard, post: 338588, member: 41]
But at an educated guess I'd say that your horn could have 2mm shaved off the height off the action, and about 15% taken off the spring tension...and you'd be amazed at the results.[/QUOTE]

That's interesting. By chance I play a Jupiter tenor artist series that has a rather high action. I took it to 2 techs and both recommended against tweaking the height. While one is a clarinet specialist, the other is into saxophones and seems to know what he does. Argument was the factory knows how to do it and tweaking impacts on the sound. Are they especially timid or to much trusting in factory set up?

Alphorn
 
A very simple answer to that question is to try it yourself and see what you think.
You can, more or less, lower the action by adjusting just five key corks on a horn - the ones on the feet of the low F, E and D keys, and the pair on the top A and B keys.
This will lower the main stack action. On a proper job you might need to address the ancillary keys as well.

You can do this yourself with a sheet of card (1mm thick) and some masking tape. Simply cut out small strips of card, place them on the body beneath the feet of those five keys, then secure them in place with a strip of tape over them. This'll lower your stack action. It won't be perfectly balanced but it'll give you a good idea of what the effects will be.
You'll probably have to remove the trouser guard for better access to the rear of the lower stack - but it's just two screws.

If you feel it's an improvement - have the job done properly. If you feel it makes things worse simply remove the tape and card, and no harm done.
Some horns have height adjusters on the key feet - but unless you really know what you're doing I'd advise you leave them alone for the time being.

As for the factory knowing what's best, most of them can't even get the fundamentals right (level toneholes, tight action, properly glued and seated pads) - and given what I regularly see on the bench I'd say yes, a certain amount of over-trust is evidence.
It's also the case that lowering the action is pretty much an on-the-spot job, as is resetting it to factory spec...so again, yes, I think they're being somewhat timid.

If you feel the action is too high, then it's too high. It's your horn, after all. Provided you're aware of the possible consequences of lowering it, it's no-one's call but your own. And if it turns out you were wrong, it's beer money to reset it. Assuming you don't go too mad, the worst that will happen is the horn will feel a little strangled in its response.
 
Thanks Stephen! I'll try it. What would be ancillary keys by the way? And yes, I know what you mean about fundamentals, having sent you a picture of a badly factory glued pad just a few weeks ago.

Alphorn
 
The ancillary keys would be anything that's not on the main stack (B down to D) - such as the palm keys, side keys and the bell keys.
In practice it's usually fine to leave these as they are, but with a lower stack action it's often worth adjusting the opening height of the side keys...and maybe bringing the low C down just a tad.
You've also got the front top F key touchpiece to deal with, and the throw of the G# may have to be adjusted.
 
Thanks to everyone who chimed in. Atm it looks like I'll keep the Jupiter after all, will get a decent price (about €700). So I've decided to stay with it and aim for a more expensive option later on.

Tried it today with some different mouthpieces and wow, things happened when I put on the Vandoren V5 T35 ... nice fat sound and just great fun to play with. So easy to bend and jump to overtones. Just wow.
 
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I started playing on a Jupiter 500 series 8 1/2 years ago, and it did me for about 2 years, through my grade 4 exam. Once I passed the exam, I part-exchanged the Jupiter for a Yanigasawa A901, and got back in part exchange ALL of what I had paid for the Jupiter 2nd hand in the first place!

Once I passed my grade 8, and was looking at taking my Diploma, I treated myself to my Selmer SA80 a year ago!

I didn't have any particular issues with the Jupiter at the time; until I got the Yani, and then that was clearly a better and more responsive instrument.
 
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