Berg Larsen too sharp; how to fix?

[Squawky]

I purchased a Stainless Steel Berg Larsen 120/1/M tenor mouthpiece (same as listed in my sig) back in December of 2010 as my first jazz mouthpiece. Before the Berg, I was playing on my school's Selmer S-80 C*. I play the Berg on my Super 20, and I love the sound, but the problem is, it plays around 40 cents sharp when about in the middle of my cork. When I back it off to get it in tune, it refuses to stay on my neck. I've had it recorked with a very large cork and have used plumber's tape before to hold the piece on, but it still wobbles. Is there something I can do to get this thing to play in tune? Or should I just look for another mouthpiece that will give me a similar sound but will stay in tune and more importantly, stay on the neck?

 

[thomsax]

Berg Larsen ss tenor mouthpiece and King Super 20 is a "classic" setup used by lots of players. Big sound. Maybe you should have a new thicker neckcork? Easy for a tech to help you with.

Thomas

 

[Nick Wyver]

Switching from a Selmer C* to a 120 Berg is a heck of a jump. Sounds more like you want to work on your embouchure. Has anyone else played it?

 

[Saxo]

A Selmer C* is .071, Berg Larsen is .120. As Nick said, that is a heck of a jump -even for a player with years of experience.

 

[Squawky]

I purchased the mouthpiece used on ebay, so yes, someone else has played it, and there weren't any complaints that I saw about the intonation of the mouthpiece. Any recommendations on ways I can strengthen my embouchure?

 

[Pyrografix]

I purchased the mouthpiece used on ebay, so yes, someone else has played it, and there weren't any complaints that I saw about the intonation of the mouthpiece. Any recommendations on ways I can strengthen my embouchure?

I think the question about someone else 'playing it' was referring to someone else playing your sax and the new mouthpiece together - maybe a teacher or someone with experience of that type of m/piece could try it, to eliminate any doubts about the mouthpiece itself.

Keep practicing!

 

[Nick Wyver]

Yup. That's what I meant. If you know an experienced sax player (that's sax player - not a clarinetist who thinks a sax is a sort of inferior clarinet) then get him to play your set-up and see what the intonation's like,

"Strengthening" your embouchure is possibly the wrong way of thinking about it. It sounds like you need to loosen up.

 

[thomsax]

I also tried Berg Larsen ss with wide opening (115/0 SMS and 120/0 SMS) on King Super 20 tenor. They were too hard for me to handle. I also tried a Dukoff LD 10 (0.130) with the same result. If you want to give your mouthpiece a chance I think you must play a lot and do embouchure excersises every day and several hours each day. You must keep in mind that a setup like yours was used by players like King Curtis, Clarence Clemons, Red Prysock (but they were on harder reeds!!!) … . So it’s not easy for hobby players, like myself, to get used to such setups.

Try to trade your open Larsen for a medium (0.90-0.95) or medium-open (0.100-.0.105) one. Your reed is also fine on Berg Larsens. A LaVoz M reeds are softer than Rico, Rico Royal 2,5 but harder than Vandoren 2. You can try a softer reed on your mouthpiece as well and see how it turns out. I think the M facing is easier to control compared to the SMS facing. The “1” baffle is a quite high (closer to the reed) compared to the low “3” baffle. I would say your mouthpice is a great Rock or R&B mouthpiece. Larsens baffles are 0-3 with 0 brightest and 3 darkest.

I have owned three King Super 20 tenors and they were hard for me to get along with. IMO, a demanding sax. Thats way I switched to Martins. Better for me to play on. The King Super 20 is a very nice and delicate sax. I regret I sold my first King Super 20 from the early 50’s. A milestone when it comes to saxes!

Good luck with your sax and mouthpice. King Super 20 and Berg Larsen metal mouthpieces sounds good in my ears!


Thomas

 

[Squawky]

Alright, thanks! I'll have my sax teacher take a look at the mouthpiece and try out my whole setup to see whether it's just me or if there's something up with the mouthpiece. As for a different Berg, I'm thinking I might also do a lower baffle on the next one, perhaps a 2. I'll look around for a decent 105/2/M in stainless. Or should I try bronze? I also ordered a box of Rico Jazz Select 2H reeds yesterday so I'll see how those react with the mouthpiece.

 

[Clivey]

I can`t get a toot out of my"100/2 SMS" these days as I stick to a 5 YAM.

It`s all embouchure stuff. No Fast way I`m afraid.

 

[Saxo]

Exactly ! A .120 is extreme. John Coltrane used a .090, Stan Getz a .095 and most of the best tenors never exceeded .105.

 

[Jules]

most of the best tenors never exceeded .105.

agree with the first bit of your statement but I'm not convinced by that bit- ernie watts, brecker etc.. plas johnson's epic 150 thou berg etc (but, as they say- don't try this at home)

 

[thomsax]

Alright, thanks! I'll have my sax teacher take a look at the mouthpiece and try out my whole setup to see whether it's just me or if there's something up with the mouthpiece. As for a different Berg, I'm thinking I might also do a lower baffle on the next one, perhaps a 2. I'll look around for a decent 105/2/M in stainless. Or should I try bronze? I also ordered a box of Rico Jazz Select 2H reeds yesterday so I'll see how those react with the mouthpiece.

I have a BL ss (blue box) tenor mpc 95/2 SMS in good condition. Send a PM if you want to trade?

Thomas

 

[compound]

Hi Squawky,
Is there any sign inside the piece that it has been reworked in the past,? worth checking.
Rob.

 

[Two Voices]

Exactly ! A .120 is extreme. John Coltrane used a .090, Stan Getz a .095 and most of the best tenors never exceeded .105.

I don’t agree! Many great Tenor Saxophonists play / played bigger than .105” such as:

• Pete Christlieb| Metal Berg Larsen 130/0
• Arnett Cobb | Otto-Link #9 (0.120”)
• Ronnie Cuber | Otto-Link 8* (0.115”)
• Frank Foster | Lawton 10*B
• Gary Foster | Lawton 10*B
• Stan Getz | Otto-Link 8* HR (0.115”)
• Johnny Griffin | Otto-Link 0.150”
• Jimmy Giuffre | Berg Larsen 130/0
• Scott Hamilton | Otto-Link #12 (0.150”)
• Willis "Gator Tail" Jackson | Otto-Link 12* (0.155”)
• Plas Johnson | Berg Larsen 160/2
• Bob Malach | Otto-Link 8* (0.115”)
• James Moody | RPC 150M
• Houston Person | Lawton #10
• Lenny Pickett | Berg Larsen 130/0
• Joshua Redman | Otto-Link 9* (0.125”)
• Sonny Rollins| Berg Larsen 130/2
• Wayne Shorter | Otto-Link #10 HR (0.130”)
• Ernie Watts | Otto-Link #13 (0.160”)
• Ben Webster | Otto-Link #9 (0.120”)
• Plus many, many more …

I play an 8* (0.115”) which I find a little too small and having a custom 0.120” made up which plays a little bigger than the Otto-Link so it’ll be more like a 0.125” (9*).

There are plenty of great players at the other extreme who play tiny tip openings such as Don Byas with his Otto-Link Florida Super Tone Master 3* (0.065”).

Could you play Coltrane’s set-up? He played his Custom Otto-Link 5* (0.080”) with Rico #4 Reeds!!!

Everyone has different mouth sizes, shapes, tongues, jaws, lungs, etc … which mean’s finding a tip opening that suits you and a chamber, baffle, etc … that gives you that sound you want!

Doesn’t the nice Mr Thomas play a PPT 9* (0.125”)!

EDIT: BTW Stan Getz, actually played an Otto-Link 8* HR (0.115”) not a 0.095" ;}

 

[kevgermany]

I think there are two points here:

1 - the jump is huge and will take some managing. OP has already decided to do something about it.
2 - Each 'great' player played what he wanted to play. And many changed at different times in their careers. You don't need a big opening to be a good player, and neither do you need a small opening. Even though the modern tendancy is towads wider tips/softer reeds, it's not an absolute. And no point in arguing...

 

[Two Voices]

I think there are two points here:

1 - the jump is huge and will take some managing. OP has already decided to do something about it.
2 - Each 'great' player played what he wanted to play. And many changed at different times in their careers. You don't need a big opening to be a good player, and neither do you need a small opening. Even though the modern tendancy is towads wider tips/softer reeds, it's not an absolute. And no point in arguing...

That's what I was trying to say! In too many words ))

... And no point in arguing...

:shocked: Spoil sport ))

 

[Squawky]

Rob,

I don't think it has been reworked. Everything looks pretty normal. Eventually I can upload some pictures of the piece when I get home.

 

[jonf]

I'm not a great player, and never will be, so this probably means nothing, but I play a 120 mouthpiece, a modified Otto Link 10. I just find it suits me. I've always found things like Yamaha 4c and 5c, and Selmer C* to be like trying to blow through a pinhole, and I started playing on a 105 mouthpiece. I don't find a 120 to be in any way extreme.

None of this is any evidence of me being a tough macho guy (I'm not) as I play using either a RJS 2S or 2M reed. So, big mouthpiece, soft reed. Works for me.

 

[Squawky]

I'm not a great player, and never will be, so this probably means nothing, but I play a 120 mouthpiece, a modified Otto Link 10. I just find it suits me. I've always found things like Yamaha 4c and 5c, and Selmer C* to be like trying to blow through a pinhole, and I started playing on a 105 mouthpiece. I don't find a 120 to be in any way extreme.

None of this is any evidence of me being a tough macho guy (I'm not) as I play using either a RJS 2S or 2M reed. So, big mouthpiece, soft reed. Works for me.

I do understand what you're saying. I love the 120 tip opening and I don't think it's extreme either. It's a great feel but my only issue is intonation. I'm hoping that finding a slightly smaller tip opening will allow me to control it better and thus achieve bearable intonation. Also, what do you think of those RJS reeds? I haven't tried them yet.