BOTM Ballad of the Month February 2016: Soultrane

[Chris]

@Jeanette I wouldn't take up knitting just yet🙂 Not with you having the sop under control quite nicely🙂
Time to add a little feeling to your playing Jeanette, try using a little vibrato on the longer notes. The saying is beginners don't use it, intermediate players use it all the time and 'pro's' just know when to get it right🙂
Enjoyed the short version 🙂

Chris..

 

[Jeanette]

Thanks @Chris I have only just started looking at vibrato and am not confident in using it yet but it has to be the next step I think 🙂

Jx

 

[Jeanette]

Ask someone who can hear you play it live, like hubby, to listen to the recording to see if it sounds like you, if the recording doesn't sound like you then look at how you recorded it

I bit the bullet and asked he who hates anything saxophonic, he said it sounded better on the recording.......though he did add it was smoother with the backing track as obviously he doesn't hear that when I am recording.

Jx

 

[jbtsax]

As ever any hints tips advice (take up knitting!) welcome 🙂
Jx

I second the suggestion to begin to learn to play with vibrato. Your tone, control, and pitch have progressed to the point that it is the next step to sounding more professional. It is not difficult to learn. It just takes a bit of practice to get it smooth and up to speed. My other suggestion is to be careful to not rush the eighth notes (quavers). This is a very common tendency among inexperienced players and even those with experience when they are not paying attention.

A good way to practice is to tongue (legato) all of the notes in the melody in their eighth note (quaver) values. This helps to "internalize" the subdivision of the beat. Some ballads work when the eighth notes (quavers) are swung, but most sound the best with eighth notes (quavers) played straight. Soul Trane is one of those. Once the "subdivision" is internalized and the eighth notes (quavers) can be played without rushing, then it is ok to take some liberties with the rhythm so long as you are "spot on" every time beat 1 of each measure comes around.

 

[Jeanette]

My other suggestion is to be careful to not rush the eighth notes (quavers).

Fair point and something I do sometimes do in orchestra but I was specifically trying not to play it exactly as written ....Is that really wrong?

Jx

 

[trimmy]

I was specifically trying not to play it exactly as written ....Is that really wrong?

Jx

This is a good point as i would say you are putting 'your' interpretation on the tune

 

[jbtsax]

Fair point and something I do sometimes do in orchestra but I was specifically trying not to play it exactly as written ....Is that really wrong? Jx

Ok Jeanette, that is not wrong by any means, however. . . . (you knew a "however" was coming) 🙂 When you put your own rhythmic interpretation to a song, it still must be played IN TIME. What does IN TIME mean? It is probably the most important concept in jazz next to style and articulation.

IN TIME means that everything you play must fit or "lock into" the underlying subdivision of the beat. In swing the underlying subdivision is triplets or three divisions to each beat. In ballads, most rock and pop tunes the underlying subdivision is duplets or quavers (eighth notes). In disco or new age the underlying subdivision is often quadruplets or semi quavers (sixteenth notes).

At the beginning of this thread is a video of John Coltrane playing the melody of this tune. At first listen he seems to be taking a lot of liberties with the rhythm of the melody---maybe even rushing or dragging. He is not. He is playing IN TIME beautifully as professional players do. This is a short transcription as best as I could do it of the rhythms he is playing.

 

[Bernie]

I've really struggled with the drop from higher octave to lower on this and there are so many of them.

I didn't notice any struggling.

There is also a real dryness in my tone that I can't figure out as I'm sure it isn't that bad live 🙁

I sounded a bit dry or stuffy to myself on alto this evening, so I changed the reed and that fixed it. I don't think I would have said you sounded particularly "dry" on that recording, it you hadn't mentioned it.

As other people have said your playing is quite accurate, so I would like to hear you relax with it, make the tune your own. Play with the time, start phrases a little earlier than the backing, or a little later, slide up into notes, repeat notes or phrases. Don't worry about it being perfect, try to recover gracefully from any mistakes.

[I wrote this before I saw your discussion with jbtsax. I'm not a teacher.]

 

[Jeanette]

Ok Jeanette, that is not wrong by any means, however. . . . (you knew a "however" was coming) 🙂 When you put your own rhythmic interpretation to a song, it still must be played IN TIME. What does IN TIME mean? It is probably the most important concept in jazz next to style and articulation.

IN TIME means that everything you play must fit or "lock into" the underlying subdivision of the beat. In swing the underlying subdivision is triplets or three divisions to each beat. In ballads, most rock and pop tunes the underlying subdivision is duplets or quavers (eighth notes). In disco or new age the underlying subdivision is often quadruplets or semi quavers (sixteenth notes).

At the beginning of this thread is a video of John Coltrane playing the melody of this tune. At first listen he seems to be taking a lot of liberties with the rhythm of the melody---maybe even rushing or dragging. He is not. He is playing IN TIME beautifully as professional players do. This is a short transcription as best as I could do it of the rhythms he is playing.

I didn't notice any struggling.

As other people have said your playing is quite accurate, so I would like to hear you relax with it, make the tune your own. Play with the time, start phrases a little earlier than the backing, or a little later, slide up into notes, repeat notes or phrases. Don't worry about it being perfect, try to recover gracefully from any mistakes.

[I wrote this before I saw your discussion with jbtsax. I'm not a teacher.]

aaaaggghhh 🙂

Two differing opinions and this is why I find it so confusing.

But thank you both 🙂

Jx

 

[aldevis]

aaaaggghhh 🙂

Two differing opinions and this is why I find it so confusing.

But thank you both 🙂

Jx

I belong, like Trimmy, to the interpretation party. I like this version a lot and think that your playing improved dramatically in the last 6 months.
Still you can relax on the BT, but that is a further step.

Learning vibrato should be on the "to do" list.

 

[Bernie]

aaaaggghhh 🙂

Two differing opinions and this is why I find it so confusing.

But thank you both 🙂

Jx

I don't think they are two differing opinions, I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

I think Coltrane does what I said, which is to start phrases a little earlier or later than the backing (or the written melody), but at the same time he is doing what @jbtsax said, which is to stick to the underlying rhythm.

I'd be very interested in jbtsax's thoughts on that.

 

[trimmy]

There is also a real dryness in my tone

https://soundcloud.com/jeanette-7%2Fsoultrane-short

View: https://soundcloud.com/jeanette-7/soultrane-short


As ever any hints tips advice (take up knitting!) welcome 🙂
Jx

Had a catch up with my headphones on, and agree with a lot that has been said above about intonation, timing and such and agree with Al about your improvement.
This is your best piece to date

Dryness, take a drink 😉 as if you need encouragement

 

[Jeanette]

I didn't notice any struggling.

That's hopefully because of the exercises I had been doing when it was pointed out to me I sounded honky on non published versions.

I've been thinking more about what @jbtsax said about playing in time and he's right, when I was playing this to start with I really tried to hit the notes in time with the chord changes at the start of the bars but then when I was concentrating on not honking that got left behind a little. But that said I was taking liberties with interpretation within the bar 🙂

Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement, I still think I'm not very good at this sax playing lark but am less inclined to say I'm rubbish so maybe one day if I carry on I'll think I'm passable 🙂

Jx

 

[jbtsax]

aaaaggghhh 🙂

Two differing opinions and this is why I find it so confusing.

But thank you both 🙂

Jx

Sorry if this concept comes across as confusing. Let me state it another way. Taking liberties with the rhythm of the melody is fine so long as the rhythms you play don't rush or drag against the underlying subdivisions of the beat. In a ballad this is counted: |1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & | So if you play quavers (eighth notes) they should line up with the underlying pulse. This "print screen" from band in a box notation shows graphically how notes line up with the subdivisions of the beat.

 

[trimmy]

That's hopefully because of the exercises I had been doing when it was pointed out to me I sounded honky on non published versions.

I've been thinking more about what @jbtsax said about playing in time and he's right, when I was playing this to start with I really tried to hit the notes in time with the chord changes at the start of the bars but then when I was concentrating on not honking that got left behind a little. But that said I was taking liberties with interpretation within the bar 🙂

Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement, I still think I'm not very good at this sax playing lark but am less inclined to say I'm rubbish so maybe one day if I carry on I'll think I'm passable 🙂

Jx

Well if you do take up knitting do me a scarf please

 

[Jeanette]

Well if you do take up knitting do me a scarf please

red and white 🙂

Jx

 

[trimmy]

red and white 🙂

Jx

Of course

 

[Targa]

red and white 🙂

Jx

Easy for you to remember.

 

[Rob Pealing]

@Jeanette , I have just had another listen through a half descent headphone set, I like your tone and it sounds a lot better than when I joined the café one year ago. Don't take up knitting, who will do play alongs to help with my timing?

 

[Jeanette]

@Jeanette , I have just had another listen through a half descent headphone set, I like your tone and it sounds a lot better than when I joined the café one year ago. Don't take up knitting, who will do play alongs to help with my timing?

Thank you Rob but my timing leaves a lot to be desired especially on this one... I'll keep playing then on the understanding you keep recording too.

Who knows we may manage a duet one day 🙂

Jx