Saxophones B&S Gold label? Blue lavel? tenor pads sizes

[Jose]

Recently I bought a B&S tenor, it´s a , "gold label?" the typically blue label it´s gold, and has some improvements like the C# key guard; the adjustable right thumb rest; the clothes guard; and the more secure, Selmer-style plate that holds the bell to body support brace to the bell, but bassically the body it´s the same of the blue labels.
I uploaded some pics for the B&S fanclub members...
I live in Spain, but I have the sax in Poland, I often spend some weeks there because my wife is polish, and I need a sax there. Flying with saxes it´s for me a kind of nightmare...
I bought the sax in september through internet, and the sax rested at my wife family home up to last Christmas when I finally could play it. I found it great, nice sound, superb action and construction, but the pads are in their last hours... I found the B&S 230 metal mouthpiece included in the deal a nice screamer...
In Christmas holidays I had no time to disassemble the sax and measure the pads...I´d like repadding it. If someone around here did it before with a blue label, it would be very useful for me the pads sizes in order to buy them and repad the sax the next time I´ll fly to Warsaw.

Thanks in advance!

Jose.

 

[kevgermany]

Thanks for the info. I've seen quite a bit of speculation about the differences, if any, between the blue and gold label saxes.

Good luck with the repad.

 

[adysaxman]

Hi Jose, I've just recently bought the silver plated 'blue label' tenor, which also came with a metal B&S 230 (but it was a little too tight a lay for my personal preference) I'm wanting to give this sax a complete overhaul with roo pads and blue steel springs, did you get round to measuring the pads on the gold label, and if so can you relay the sizes please? There is no difference between the blue and gold label saxes structure wise I believe. The horn that I bought, it was advertised as 'nickel plate', but the seller got it wrong, he just needed to try and polish it before making assumptions. My gain, his loss.

 

[Ads]

if the horn is fitted with stainless steel springs now then it`d be unwise to change to blued steel - reason being that for a given tension, SS springs are a lot thicker and blued steel ones which fit the holes in the pillars would be far too heavy .......

Also the business about blued steel being better is a total myth, it`s not what they're made of, its the action geometery & spring length which counts , Yamaha used Stanless steel springs on their entire run of the 61 series and then the 62 series throughout the whole Mk1 stage when the model was the top of the range (pre EX and Z series) and these horns have the best action of any Yamaha to date ..

 

[adysaxman]

if the horn is fitted with stainless steel springs now then it`d be unwise to change to blued steel - reason being that for a given tension, SS springs are a lot thicker and blued steel ones which fit the holes in the pillars would be far too heavy .......

Also the business about blued steel being better is a total myth, it`s not what they're made of, its the action geometery & spring length which counts , Yamaha used Stanless steel springs on their entire run of the 61 series and then the 62 series throughout the whole Mk1 stage when the model was the top of the range (pre EX and Z series) and these horns have the best action of any Yamaha to date ..

Thanks for the sound advice, I will take what you have said on board. I used to play a YAS 61 alto many moons ago, one of those saxes that I truly regret parting with.

 

[thomsax]

I think you should mesure the key cups before you order the pads. I worked in a music store in the late70's early 80's and the owner use to buy saxes direct from B&S factory in Markneukirchen. He drove down in a Volvo 245 and collected the saxes. It was a lot of paperworks to be done before. The saxes were pre-paid through the DDR embassy, visas for the persons that went, transit .... . I been there once. It was an unpleasant roadtrip on pre war concrete Autobahns, smaller roads as well, from Sassitz/Rygen down to Klingenthal. We were not allowed to go into the factory. We just spoke to a few guys. We brought back 15-25 B&S blue label saxes (sopranos, altos, tenors, baritones). Back in Sweden the saxes had new pads, corks & felts and a proper setup. The blue label saxes were bargains back then. In 1978 you could buy a Blue Label tenor for 1800.00 s e k. YTS 21 (wo high F#) was 3950.00, YTS 61 4700.00, Louis Robert (Amati stencil) 2700.00, Yanagisawa (first year under their own name) 3500.00 and Armstrong 4500.00!!!! Today you can find B&S Blue Label saxes that are sold for a lot more than costed new. And they have been used over the years as well!! In my opinon the Yamaha 21 or Corton DeLuxe (Yanagisawa stencil) were better saxes but the Blues Label was better than Amati, Conn/Armstrong and the Italian stencils.

The Blue Label was a modern construction compared to the Weltklangs. Weltklang had thier tone holes in-line (Milandro says that he had seen Weltklangs bulit like B&S and I'm sure that some Weltklangs and B&S shared the same tube) and the Blue Label was keyed to high F#. The Gold Label was a more refined Blue Label. A comment we often heard was that the Blue Label brace was a "borrow" from B&C! B&S stenciled lots saxes for other firms.

B&S Blue and Gold Label are good saxes. But the prices are sometimes too high.

 

[adysaxman]

I think you should mesure the key cups before you order the pads. I worked in a music store in the late70's early 80's and the owner use to buy saxes direct from B&S factory in Markneukirchen. He drove down in a Volvo 245 and collected the saxes. It was a lot of paperworks to be done before. The saxes were pre-paid through the DDR embassy, visas for the persons that went, transit .... . I been there once. It was an unpleasant roadtrip on pre war concrete Autobahns, smaller roads as well, from Sassitz/Rygen down to Klingenthal. We were not allowed to go into the factory. We just spoke to a few guys. We brought back 15-25 B&S blue label saxes (sopranos, altos, tenors, baritones). Back in Sweden the saxes had new pads, corks & felts and a proper setup. The blue label saxes were bargains back then. In 1978 you could buy a Blue Label tenor for 1800.00 s e k. YTS 21 (wo high F#) was 3950.00, YTS 61 4700.00, Louis Robert (Amati stencil) 2700.00, Yanagisawa (first year under their own name) 3500.00 and Armstrong 4500.00!!!! Today you can find B&S Blue Label saxes that are sold for a lot more than costed new. And they have been used over the years as well!! In my opinon the Yamaha 21 or Corton DeLuxe (Yanagisawa stencil) were better saxes but the Blues Label was better than Amati, Conn/Armstrong and the Italian stencils.
The Blue Label was a modern construction compared to the Weltklangs. Weltklang had thier tone holes in-line (Milandro says that he had seen Weltklangs bulit like B&S and I'm sure that some Weltklangs and B&S shared the same tube) and the Blue Label was keyed to high F#. The Gold Label was a more refined Blue Label. A comment we often heard was that the Blue Label brace was a "borrow" from B&C! B&S stenciled lots saxes for other firms.

B&S Blue and Gold Label are good saxes. But the prices are sometimes too high.

That's a very interesting story, so what would the price of the Blue label tenor for 1800.00 s e k be in English pounds sterling at todays prices and back then if you know? This is an interesting site, it states that the Blue and Gold Label B&S were virtually the same, apart from the colour of the brace. http://bassic-sax.info/version5/vin...gnal-instrumenten-fabrik-bs/bs-aka-blue-label
I have seen a full set of Roo pads that fit a Selmer MKVI and wondered if they were the same fit as the B&S?

 

[adysaxman]

I think you should mesure the key cups before you order the pads. I worked in a music store in the late70's early 80's and the owner use to buy saxes direct from B&S factory in Markneukirchen. He drove down in a Volvo 245 and collected the saxes. It was a lot of paperworks to be done before. The saxes were pre-paid through the DDR embassy, visas for the persons that went, transit .... . I been there once. It was an unpleasant roadtrip on pre war concrete Autobahns, smaller roads as well, from Sassitz/Rygen down to Klingenthal. We were not allowed to go into the factory. We just spoke to a few guys. We brought back 15-25 B&S blue label saxes (sopranos, altos, tenors, baritones). Back in Sweden the saxes had new pads, corks & felts and a proper setup. The blue label saxes were bargains back then. In 1978 you could buy a Blue Label tenor for 1800.00 s e k. YTS 21 (wo high F#) was 3950.00, YTS 61 4700.00, Louis Robert (Amati stencil) 2700.00, Yanagisawa (first year under their own name) 3500.00 and Armstrong 4500.00!!!! Today you can find B&S Blue Label saxes that are sold for a lot more than costed new. And they have been used over the years as well!! In my opinon the Yamaha 21 or Corton DeLuxe (Yanagisawa stencil) were better saxes but the Blues Label was better than Amati, Conn/Armstrong and the Italian stencils.

The Blue Label was a modern construction compared to the Weltklangs. Weltklang had thier tone holes in-line (Milandro says that he had seen Weltklangs bulit like B&S and I'm sure that some Weltklangs and B&S shared the same tube) and the Blue Label was keyed to high F#. The Gold Label was a more refined Blue Label. A comment we often heard was that the Blue Label brace was a "borrow" from B&C! B&S stenciled lots saxes for other firms.

B&S Blue and Gold Label are good saxes. But the prices are sometimes too high.

Forgot to ask, why did the saxes need a repad/corks/felts when you got them to Sweden? Just wondering, because mine has all the original, and they appear to be fine, way better than a lot of other makes that I've seen.

 

[Ads]

1800 Swedish Krona = £152

£152 in 1979 is the equivalent of £740 now .. similar to the current price of the better Chinese tenors like a Bauhaus Walstein TS-YD or the Taiwanese TJ Revolution II or an Indonesian made Yamaha YTS-280 . Hi end Budget Tenor prices which is probably about what the B&S Blue label was ....


Handy site for doing historical UK price conversions

http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/

 

[adysaxman]

1800 Swedish Krona = £152

£152 in 1979 is the equivalent of £740 now .. similar to the current price of the better Chinese tenors like a Bauhaus Walstein TS-YD or the Taiwanese TJ Revolution II or an Indonesian made Yamaha YTS-280 . Hi end Budget Tenor prices which is probably about what the B&S Blue label was ....


Handy site for doing historical UK price conversions

http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/

Thanks for that! I bought a YAS 61 alto sax in about 1982 for about £250.00, and always regret parting with it.

 

[jazzdoh]

B&S horns are without doubt excellent very underrated horns,i have 2 a blue label alto and 2001 series tenor,the tenor in particular is a monster player and the alto plays well too,it would be interesting to see how you get on using roo's.

 

[thomsax]

Forgot to ask, why did the saxes need a repad/corks/felts when you got them to Sweden? Just wondering, because mine has all the original, and they appear to be fine, way better than a lot of other makes that I've seen.

The quality control was not so good. On some saxes the pads were ok, but the quality of the pads were uneven. They says that most of leather in DDR went to military industry and cork was also something that was hard to get in DDR. Some saxes had compressed corks. Instead of trying to get B&S horns into good playing condition it was easier for us to re-pad .... . We used a pad that was something in the same style as the pads that were on Yam 21.

 

[adysaxman]

B&S horns are without doubt excellent very underrated horns,i have 2 a blue label alto and 2001 series tenor,the tenor in particular is a monster player and the alto plays well too,it would be interesting to see how you get on using roo's.

 

[adysaxman]

I would be in full agreement with you on that one! I've just bought the Blue label tenor (as per my photo) and it plays lovely and smooth, the action is very responsive. I've seen some comments made by owners of these horns who have owned the coveted Selmer MkVI and yet say they prefer these horns! I can say that I've personally owned a Selmer MkVII (knowing the criticism out there of that particular series) and I can say that the B&S Blue Label blows that particular horn out of the water, hands down.

 

[Jose]

Hi Jose, I've just recently bought the silver plated 'blue label' tenor, which also came with a metal B&S 230 (but it was a little too tight a lay for my personal preference) I'm wanting to give this sax a complete overhaul with roo pads and blue steel springs, did you get round to measuring the pads on the gold label, and if so can you relay the sizes please? There is no difference between the blue and gold label saxes structure wise I believe. The horn that I bought, it was advertised as 'nickel plate', but the seller got it wrong, he just needed to try and polish it before making assumptions. My gain, his loss.

Hi, just now I´m repadding the sax... or trying... only when my two years old baby sleeps I can install one or two pads...
Anyway, I measured the cups and ordered the pads from musicmedic, and I must say I was so conservative because I was afraid about ordering too big pads, and finally they are a little bit small... When I measured something between 26,5 and 27 mm I ordered 26,5... and I mean it would have been better to order 27mm....

This is exactly what I ordered...

9,5mm 2 pads
18,5mm 5 pads
19,5mm 1 pad
26,5mm 1 pad
29,5mm 1 pad
31,5mm 2 pads
33,5mm 2 pads
36,5mm 2 pads
39,5mm 2 pads
41,5mm 3 pads
47,5mm 1 pad
49,5mm 3 pads

I suggest to you to order everyone 0,5mm wider.

I hope my mistake will help you.

 

[adysaxman]

Hi Jose, did musicmedic 'custom make' your pads to the measurements which you provided? If you're replacing only two at a time, have you completely stripped the horn, and is every one of the pads you ordered
0.5 mm too small? Thanks for the input on this by the way, it's well appreciated.

 

[Jose]

Hi Jose, did musicmedic 'custom make' your pads to the measurements which you provided? If you're replacing only two at a time, have you completely stripped the horn, and is every one of the pads you ordered
0.5 mm too small? Thanks for the input on this by the way, it's well appreciated.

Hi, excuse me if my answers are not very quick, I had so little free time last weeks...
I think they were no "custom make" because is possible to order in their web all the sizes individually and they were delivered to me in Spain very quick, within ten days after order.
At the moment I have installed ten pads, may be 6 or 7 different sizes, and all of them are a little bit smaller than the cup. In this moment I´m not sure about what to do... to continue repadding with this sizes or to order the rights ones... Is possible to install these sizes I ordered but the result is not the best aesthetically and the right installation is more difficult... because the pad can move inside the cup when youn melt the glue... and the glue has space to overflow between the pad and the cup...

 

[adysaxman]

Hi, excuse me if my answers are not very quick, I had so little free time last weeks...
I think they were no "custom make" because is possible to order in their web all the sizes individually and they were delivered to me in Spain very quick, within ten days after order.
At the moment I have installed ten pads, may be 6 or 7 different sizes, and all of them are a little bit smaller than the cup. In this moment I´m not sure about what to do... to continue repadding with this sizes or to order the rights ones... Is possible to install these sizes I ordered but the result is not the best aesthetically and the right installation is more difficult... because the pad can move inside the cup when youn melt the glue... and the glue has space to overflow between the pad and the cup...

Hi Jose, I wouldn't recommend fitting smaller pads in the cups, this can only in doing so, cause you major problems down the line. You would definitely have been better off sending them back to musicmedic where you bought them and asking them to send 1mm larger sized ones. They must come across this type of mistake often, so I'm sure they wouldn't have any problem with replacing them. The re-padding of saxophones is a very skilful job to attempt, the glue has to be heated at the right temperature to get an even flow in the cup, and the pad has to be seated just right. I personally wouldn't attempt it at all, much rather leave it to the expert saxophone tech who knows exactly what he's doing.

 

[jbtsax]

I agree that when the measurement is between like 35.5mm and 40.0mm or 30.0mm and 30.5mm to go with the larger size when ordering specific sizes. Every make and model of saxophone is different so it is very important to remove the keys and take accurate measurements. I also measure keycups both north to south and east to west to double check since some are not perfectly round.

Music medic will exchange sizes that don't fit, but only if there is no glue or shellac applied. I have been doing this a long time and I still occasionally will have 1 or 2 pads of a set I ordered be too small or too large. There are too many variables to get it perfect every time.