Saxophone beginners B major blues scale

[eb424]

Where have i gone wrong..I thought the blues scale based on the key of b major has a fattened 5th..I have B major as B C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A, B,so thought the fith would be F#, but it has a flattened D#, ??

 

[turf3]

I'm not exactly clear what you're asking. Are you saying that you've seen "someone's" rendition of "the" B blues scale and it doesn't agree with what you thought it should be? And who's "someone"?

Let's talk about first principles. The traditional 12 bar blues pattern in B has three chords: B7, E7, and F#7. The idea of "the blues scale" is that one can take a single collection of notes and apply it throughout the whole 12 bar progressions.

Different people have different interpretations of "the blues scale". Most commonly we see a flatted third and major third together, and a flatted fifth and a perfect fifth together, and of course the flatted seventh. Depending on how oversimplified the writer wants it to be, one or the other of the flatted/unflatted pair gets omitted.

So for traditional 12 bar blues in B, most musicians would choose from the note collection:

B C# D D# E F F# A . The D/D# and F/F# pairings are there because they attempt to eliminate the half steps that are present in all diatonic scales. This has to do with the history of the blues sound, which is too extensive to get into here. But if you think of that note collection as B, C#, (D 1/2), E, (F 1/2), A, then you get a set of notes that fit over all three of the main blues chords. You can drop the D# and F natural and it'll sound "okish".

Now if you want your solos over a blues progression to sound like a 12 year old, you can just grab "the blues scale" from whatever pedagogical material you wish, and slather it all over everything like putting half a bottle of ketchup all over your whole dinner plate. But it sounds like a 12 year old trying to get his first grasp of improvising. If you want stuff to sound more interesting, you need to use the whole set of notes implied by the chord changes.

Of course if you have a strong sense of what you want to do, you just play notes that sound OK to your ears, and a strong enough sense will make it all work. I'm sure there's someone out there who could whang away at a G natural single note on B blues and make it sound great.

 

[eb424]

Hey thanks. Still learning chord progression not there yet. Just loittering around key sigs at the mo..Thought id read re flattened fith could that just have been re the pentatonic scale..

 

[turf3]

Again, there's not a "the" pentatonic scale; there is a vast panoply of pentatonic scales.

 

[skeller047]

To me, the terms “major” and “blues scale” are kind of opposite. Most folks think of a B blues scale as B - D - E - (F) - F# - A. I put the flatted fifth in parentheses because it’s not always used, it’s there as a passing tone or, more importantly, as a color note.

The “major” creeps in where appropriate, substituting the D# for the D.

If you want to avoid the 12-year-old and the sound of ketchup, you do need to know the chord progression. Which notes in the blues scale work best over which chord, when to use D# instead of D, things like that. This is not beyond your comprehension Eddie. Just focus on the bass notes at first. Use your ears.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I put the flatted fifth in parentheses

A very good way to deal with it. It's the main note responsible for the 12 year old ketchup syndrome. Pentatonics are less likely to.

But the other issue is thinking that improvising means running up and down scales.

 

[turf3]

...

But the other issue is thinking that improvising means running up and down scales.

Yes, although I often use the term "scale" what I really mean is "note collection". Haven't practiced running in-line scales in 30 years or more. They're largely useless to the improvisor.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Yes, although I often use the term "scale" what I really mean is "note collection".

That's the problem, when people think of scales instead of note collection which can help them choose notes to put in their melodic phrases, licks or riffs.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I have B major as B C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A, B,so thought the fith would be F#, but it has a flattened D#, ??

That is not actually a B major, there is an A# in B major.

 

[Pete Thomas]

so thought the fith would be F#, but it has a flattened D#, ??

The B blues scale, which I refer to as the B minor blues scale to differentiate if from the B major blues scale, has a flat 3rd, flat 5th and flat 7th.

 

[turf3]

OK, so let's get away from "the blues scale" for a second.

The note collection for B7 (standard, ignoring all innovative jazzy extensions etc.): B C# D# E F# G# A
The note collection for E7: E F# G# A B C# D
The note collection for F#7: F# G# A# B C# D# E

Notes in common:

B C# E F# G#

Notes a half step apart:

D/D# A/A#

You can play a boring but correct solo over standard 12 bar blues in B with B, C#, E, F#, G# - if you're BB King or Big Jay McNeely, you can make it not boring. The rest of us will probably benefit from occasionally making use of D/D# or A/A# (Or F/F# for other reasons) to help outline where in the progression we are.

 

[turf3]

That is not actually a B major, there is an A# in B major.

The traditional 12 bar blues isn't really major or minor, it's a collection of 7 chords. If you go back far enough you'll find that where we try to put a third fifth or seventh, the old guys played a "blue note" which was in between the major or perfect 3 5 7 and the minor 3 5 7.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The traditional 12 bar blues isn't really major or minor, it's a collection of 7 chords.

To me, if the first (and last) chord is E7, then it's a major blues in E. If the first (and last) chord is Em it's a minor blues.

There are huge differences IMO because you can play or sing minor against major (aka blue notes). But major against minor in a minor blues? No thanks.

I doubt we know enough about original blues, e.g. field hollers, to get too musicological over it, but once we have evidence of recorded guitar blues we do know that yes, mostly it's going to be a collection of major triad or dominant type chords.

Minor blues may be mostly a later jazz concoction (thinkI'm Coming Home, Mr PC...) But then there was of course St Louis Blues just to confuse us, both minor and major. St James Infirmary - an old minor blues.

But then some people these days don't think it is a blues unless it's a 12 bar.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Where have i gone wrong..I thought the blues scale based on the key of b major has a fattened 5th

The whole thread may be confusing because it can depend what you mean by a blues scale based on B for it could mean different things to different people. It could mean a B major blues scale which a lot of people think of as:

B C# D D# F# G# B

Or it could mean a B (minor) blues scale. B D E F F# A B

Both can be thought of as "based on the key of B major" as both can exist on a B major blues.

But then the whole concept of "blues scales" could be thought of as an artificial construct invented by non-blues musicians (and /or educators) to explain what real blues players do without thinking.

I have taught and sadly I couldn't just say to a student "to play the blues you must have just woken up to find your man/woman done left you and to make matters worse it helps to have your dog/hamster die"

Instead we have to use the artificial constructs when people don't inherently have a feel for the music. Or else just make them listen to blues for 10,000 hours and play guitar or piano. That'll do it.

 

[turf3]

...

But then the whole concept of "blues scales" could be thought of as an artificial construct invented by non-blues musicians (and /or educators) to explain what real blues players do without thinking.
...

That could just be the whole thread right there.

OP, listen to some blues players and try to do what they do. African-American improvised music is an aural art. Music theory comes after the fact, or as a possible source of material to try out on the bandstand. In the case of the traditional blues form, and the "blues scale", I submit that the after-the-fact theory doesn't actually serve the beginning improvisor very well at all. At least not the basic dumb-ass idea of just slathering one "blues scale" all over everything till it all just sounds like poo.

 

[eb424]

That is not actually a B major, there is an A# in B major.

Darn Ive done it again, Cool, Gorillas Do Aerobics Evenings, Bare (for) F#un must get my analogy right..

 

[Pete Thomas]

That could just be the whole thread right there.

Yes, but having said that I do respect people who want to learn the blues via those more modern pedagogies because the alternative for many people is not that practical. But I think it's easier for guitarists as there is so much to emulate. The you learn to play blues on guitar you automatically learn the chord sequence and structure. Trying to learn blues saxophone without playing guitar or piano to some extent is unlikely to yield the best results.

 

[eb424]

OK, so let's get away from "the blues scale" for a second.

The note collection for B7 (standard, ignoring all innovative jazzy extensions etc.): B C# D# E F# G# A
The note collection for E7: E F# G# A B C# D
The note collection for F#7: F# G# A# B C# D# E

Notes in common:

B C# E F# G#

Notes a half step apart:

D/D# A/A#

You can play a boring but correct solo over standard 12 bar blues in B with B, C#, E, F#, G# - if you're BB King or Big Jay McNeely, you can make it not boring. The rest of us will probably benefit from occasionally making use of D/D# or A/A# (Or F/F# for other reasons) to help outline where in the progression we are.

Thanks @turf3.. but Im nowhere near that level yet..I'm not sure its even improv just trying to do some instrumentals in some pop songs for care homes..All I can do at the mo is go of the notes in the key sig..and heck I even get that wrong missing the A# out of the B major scale..lol

 

[turf3]

Thanks @turf3.. but Im nowhere near that level yet..I'm not sure its even improv just trying to do some instrumentals in some pop songs for care homes..All I can do at the mo is go of the notes in the key sig..and heck I even get that wrong missing the A# out of the B major scale..lol

VERY FEW pop songs are going to sound good by slathering "the blues scale" all over them. Pop songs are almost universally straight diatonic chord progressions.

 

[Pete Thomas]

and heck I even get that wrong missing the A# out of the B major scale..lol

Well no, because if it's a major blues, going by the notes in the key signature for a B blues is not going to help because most of the time the A# (as a major 7) will not sound as good as an A. You are approaching blues the wrong way by looking at key signatures.

And listening to people here may even be confusing as I'm sure I will be saying different things to turf3 - there is unlikely to be a consensus when approaching trying to theorise blues.