Reeds Alto sax reed advice please

[FiFi]

Alto sax reed advice please!
I've just switched from a Rico 2.0 to a Vandoren V21 2.5. The new reed has a beautiful sound but I'm finding it too hard- my embouchure goes after 10 mins or so and I start to squeak. I have tried other reeds in the same pack just in case it was an individual hard reed, and I've tried sanding down the reed, but still same problem. No squeaks when I go back to the Rico reed, but it doesn't have the same sound quality. Can anyone recommend a reed that is softer than the Vandoren V21 2.5 but will still have a reasonable sound quality? (V21 does not go lower than 2.5)


Context: I've been playing for a year, but have progressed quite quickly, as played piano for years. I play alto sax in two bands and need to be able to play for an hour or more without squeaking!!

Thanks

 

[Woodpad]

If you enjoy this sound more, go back to long tones and investigate how you have to adapt your embouchure on the Rico reeds to get this sound.

 

[mizmar]

If far from an expert; but I found the same with V21s - just couldn't find a way to wrangle them to suit me or wrangle me to suit them... I found happiness-in-box from Roberto's... Yvmv

 

[Pete Thomas]

If you enjoy this sound more, go back to long tones and investigate how you have to adapt your embouchure on the Rico reeds to get this sound.

I agree with this. It is quite common the play a harder reed and perceive differences that are much better achieved by tone control. This puts the onus on you to get the tone or sound as opposed to the reed. You control the sound not the reed and also you avoid the disadvantages of harder reeds.

 

[Sue]

If you like the Vandoren reeds, you could try a multi reed pack Vandoren Alto REED-PACK in strength 2

I like the red java and zz the best but we all like and suit different things. 🙂

 

[Pete Effamy]

Google Image Result for https://cdn.shoplightspeed.com/shops/622945/files/14270172/reedchart-saxophone.jpg

Hopefully the above link has worked but if not, you can Google Reed comparison charts.

Effectively you’ve gone from a RICO 2 to a 3, as Vandoren reeds are harder per numbering.

 

[Direct Current]

Alto sax reed advice please!
I've just switched from a Rico 2.0 to a Vandoren V21 2.5.

I'm scared to think just 1/2 point is so provocative.

Could the brand switch be making it a full point switch effectively?

My understanding is the Rico reeds strength shadow is mountain peak while the Vandoren strength shadow is a plateau right to near top. My terminology but hold them to a light and you will see mountain peak in one and plateau in the other.

So really you jumped a full point because the Vandoren would naturally be more resistant due to design difference. Even if barely harder.

 

[Pete Thomas]

So really you jumped a full point because the Vandoren would naturally be more resistant due to design difference. Even if barely harder.

That doesn't make sense to me. Reed strength is measured after they are made - so you don't get a situation where you have sort of "blank" that has already had a number attributed (e.g. 2.5) and then Rico and vanfdroen each do something different re; the vamp, and so you expect one or the other to be more resistant.

They give the reed a number after manufacture buy testing the ease of deflection of the reed with a machine.

View: https://youtu.be/MwOUEsdpuI0?si=eZ0NBJb_0ClKxD-f&t=114

 

[Pete Thomas]

Can anyone recommend a reed that is softer than the Vandoren V21 2.5 but will still have a reasonable sound quality?

I don't think there is any correlation at all between reed strength and sound quality. But there is a difference in flexibility of either tone quality or sound quality.

 

[LostCircuits]

That doesn't make sense to me. Reed strength is measured after they are made - so you don't get a situation where you have sort of "blank" that has already had a number attributed (e.g. 2.5) and then Rico and vanfdroen each do something different re; the vamp, and so you expect one or the other to be more resistant.

They give the reed a number after manufacture buy testing the ease of deflection of the reed with a machine.

View: https://youtu.be/MwOUEsdpuI0?si=eZ0NBJb_0ClKxD-f&t=114

Pete, no matter the procedure, I found similar, for example the BSS 2 are about the same as the Rigotti 2.5

OP, if you like the Vandoren 2.5, try the Marca Superieure, they are very similar to the Vandoren but just a tiny bit more flexible (at least in my experience)

 

[turf3]

Well, I don't know if a Vandoren V21, whatever that is, uses the same strength grades as the standard Vandoren reed; but Vandoren grades their reeds a lot harder than other makes, so a Vandoren (standard) 2.5 is like a Rico 3.5.

A Rico 2 is a very soft, beginner's reed, well suited for the not yet developed embouchure of a beginner. If Vandoren V21 have the same strength classes as the regular Vandoren, a 2.5 Vandoren would be a typical strength used by experienced players with well-developed embouchure - not real hard, but not real soft either. I use blue box Vandoren 2.5 or 3 on pretty much everything, and I can say that a #2 Rico would be terribly soft for me.

Either build up your embouchure, or pick a different make of reed that comes as soft as you want it. Regular Vandoren reeds go down to #1. You might try a #1.5 or #2 blue box Vandoren reed.

 

[nigeld]

I have never got on with Vandoren V21's - they have always felt too hard for me. You could try Vandoren Red or Green.

 

[Pete Thomas]

A Rico 2 is a very soft, beginner's reed,

Whoah now you've done it! Are you suggesting I'm a beginner because I like to use soft reeds? To make the best of a soft reed you need a lot of skill, air support and experience.

 

[Direct Current]

That doesn't make sense to me. Reed strength is measured after they are made - so you don't get a situation where you have sort of "blank" that has already had a number attributed (e.g. 2.5) and then Rico and vanfdroen each do something different re; the vamp, and so you expect one or the other to be more resistant.

They give the reed a number after manufacture buy testing the ease of deflection of the reed with a machine.

View: https://youtu.be/MwOUEsdpuI0?si=eZ0NBJb_0ClKxD-f&t=114

You're right. My misuse.

My reeds store showed me both against a light. The Vandoren has more visible "strength" to the top and platau. The Rico is a little point below the top. As you say, expect one to be more resistant.

I was trying to say, from my understanding, that " in effect " it would seem / feel / act like a full point difference and maybe too much of a change in one day. To wit, they suggested I move from Rico 2 to 2.5 for strengthening prior to trying the 2.5 Vandoren. I was literally living the same idea as the O P. Wild!

They had a Vandoren 2.5 pack on sale yesterday and hence why I was in there. But I was talked off the ledge by the explanation above.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Well...If you like the V21, try a softer one.

I'm not a fan of struggling with a tough reed just to build up your chops. Your chops are where they are and a suitable reed to accommodate them is what's needed. imo

Is a 2 a beginners reed?

When trying different brands and cuts, a reed comparison chart can guide you for strength/hardness, but it's all a bit hit and miss. You'll end up with a drawer full, which is handy for when you get mouthpiece gas.

There are lots of techniques to adjust reeds. I'm a scraper and clipper myself. A clipper changed the game for me, after a lot of trial and error. Scraping is the same. A little weight removed from the heart works wonders for me.
Then there's the flicking the trick. Some swear by it but it doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Sometimes I wonder if brass wouldn't be easier.

 

[Colin the Bear]

You're right. My misuse.

My reeds store showed me both against a light. The Vandoren has more visible "strength" to the top and platau. The Rico is a little point below the top. As you say, expect one to be more resistant.

I was trying to say, from my understanding, that " in effect " it would seem / feel / act like a full point difference and maybe too much of a change in one day. To wit, they suggested I move from Rico 2 to 2.5 for strengthening prior to trying the 2.5 Vandoren. I was literally living the same idea as the O P. Wild!

They had a Vandoren 2.5 pack on sale yesterday and hence why I was in there. But I was talked off the ledge by the explanation above.

Different cuts. French and American. Originally for different mouthpieces with French and American facings. Not so much these days.

A direct comparison to a D'addario Orange would be a Vandoren Juno. Both regular or American cut.

A direct comparison to a Vandoren blue would be a D'addario Reserve or a (Rico)Royal half a strength up or a D'addario Hemke. All French cut/filed.

I can't remember which a V21 is.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Whoah now you've done it! Are you suggesting I'm a beginner because I like to use soft reeds? To make the best of a soft reed you need a lot of skill, air support and experience.

If this was the ‘70’s you’d be a large Y chromosome’s blouse

 

[Pete Thomas]

If this was the ‘70’s you’d be a large Y chromosome’s blouse

I used a #4 reed on 8* alto back then, gradually worked on building my embouchure so I could use #2s effectively. It's not easy after using #4s but worth the time and effort.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I used a #4 reed on 8* alto back then, gradually worked on building my embouchure so I could use #2s effectively. It's not easy after using #4s but worth the time and effort.

I only use a soft 2.5 Hemke 🙂

 

[Pete Thomas]

I only use a soft 2.5 Hemke 🙂

Keep working at it, you'll get there!