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Saxophones Alto Sax I.D.

arock

Member
Messages
110
It seem a lot of people ask this same question. I need help researching my Alto Sax. There are some experts out there with much knowledge. It is okay to be honest. I don't have much invested and I am using it as a DIY hobby.
I have more time than money.
It is an Alto, labeled La Monte Supeior made in Holland, serial number 89835. The case looks like about a 1950's based on my 1955 Clarinet case.


Thank you for any help. If it is a POS, no problem. I would just like to know what I have.
 

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
Cafe Moderator
Messages
12,125
My first instinctive answer would be "Borgani", but few webpages are pointing to "Orsi".

Some other member might know, and few more pictures might help.
 

thomsax

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,807
I'm not familar with Dutch saxmanufactors. The only brand that I know is Schenkelaars, Einhoven. Maybe they was another manufactor?

Your sax is very close to a late "Schenkelaars" (Einhoven). I work in a musicstore and we sold some Shenkelaars. The ditributor also sold SML and some other saxophones. I kept all old salesbroschures and I have the Schenkelaars page in front of me (they are on the same page as another brand called "Parrot"!!!!! and we didn't sell them)

The late Schenkelaars were not bad. They were sold as a less expensive sax. And I think they were made in Italy and maybe put together in Eindhoven. I think all Shenkelaars saxes are stencils? And I guess your La Monte is also made in Italy?? Your sax is close to a Grassi. The plastic thumbrests and some other details looks like a Grassi. I would say your sax is from the 70's.

Thomas
 

arock

Member
Messages
110
Thanks all. I appreciate the help.
It does say "made in Holland" on the neck clamp. Also #89835.
Another feature that is unusual is a teeter-totter mechanism just below the neck on the right side. Sorry I don't know the correct terminology. It is a rocker lever about 3" long. It looks identical to this Sax in every way. I found this photo on the web. It is better quality than my photos. I have found many e flat alto Schenkelaars made Dabico photos on the web and they look I dentical to mine. No La Montes, made in Holland photos yet.
 
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Pauline

Senior Member
Subscriber
Messages
467
Hi Aroc, mine is made in Italy and from all the research I've done it was almost certainly made by Orsi. Not sure about the dutch-made ones though. Maybe Orsi made them and they were assembled in Holland?
Welcome to the forum!
 

Pauline

Senior Member
Subscriber
Messages
467
P.S. The "Superior" is supposed to be a copy of Orsi's pro model. I like mine but have not had time to give it a proper try out yet.
 

arock

Member
Messages
110
That is what the seller of this horn told me. But it apprears that Orsi is only made in Italy. I found a link that talks of Schenkelaars and Kielwerth working together to make some stencils. There is so much Sax info out there it is suprising not to find anything on
La Monte Superior's.
 

thomsax

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,807
I have two Schenkelaars. A soprano from the early 50's and stamped with Keilwerth's trade mark on the back. Rolled toneholes and "Schenkelaars" stamped in handwriting on the G# key like the Keilwerts. A heavy soprano. I don't use the sax. Needs an overhaul. The other is a good looking silverplated alto that Guban made. That sax is a wall hanger. A looker but not a player! I repaded the sax, but it didn't help. And then I've seen the Italian Schenkelaars. I think Schenkelaars went out of business around 1980, like so many other European brands. The couldn't compete with the Japanese and later Tawainese saxes. Schenkelaars made/sold brass instruments as well.

Thomas
 

thomsax

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,807
What worries me about this sax is that it's stamped made in holland.
Maybe there was a saxophone manufactoring in Holland. And if a sax is stamped "Made in Holland", then it should be made in Holland! Which Holland, North (Amsterdam...) or South (Rotterdam..)? Holland is a part of Netherlands. And Eindhofen is a town in Brabant which is a part of Netherlands .... . It's not easy .... !!! It's like King, USA, but that's another question.
 

arock

Member
Messages
110
I have looked at those photos.
My guards are identical. The brass guard supports, that are soldered on, are identical and the key pinky clusters are the same.
I need a better photo to see if the teeter-totter bar, just below the neck, is the same.
Thank you all.
 

MMM

Senior Member
Messages
912
If it were an Orsi, it would only have the serial number by the thumbhook, it wouldn't even say "made in italy". If it is stamped made in holland, then in my opinion cannot be an Orsi, I've never heard of a stencil-stencilled sax!
M.
 

arock

Member
Messages
110
Didn't Schenkelaars stencil most of their horns? Is it true that Schenkelaars and Kielwerth worked together on some horns?
I am not sure. That is why I am asking you folks, the experts.
 
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kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Subscriber
Messages
21,947
Didn't Schenkelaars stencil most of their horns? Is it true the Schenkelaars and Kielwerth worked to gether on some horns?
I am not sure. That is why I am asking you folks, the experts.
Trouble is, most of the guys who know much about id-ing stencils work on US makes. There's precious little out there about European makes. Especially in English. And there's plenty of inaccurate and contradictory stuff. So we're down to comparing photos of known provenance. And even those often have errors of attribution. Or were written before new info came to light and haven't been corrected.

One example - it's only in the last couple of months that the origin of the Evette's has been shown, and it was a previously almost unknown Italian manufacturer who was making huge numbers of saxes, but mostly stencils. (personal interest here).
 

thomsax

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,807
Didn't Schenkelaars stencil most of their horns? Is it true that Schenkelaars and Kielwerth worked together on some horns?
I am not sure. That is why I am asking you folks, the experts.
I think so. The soprano I have is a Keilwerth horn. But I can't say if it's 100% Keilwerth Nauheim horn. It's stamped with Schenkelaars, Eindhofen. No "Made in Holland" or Neatherlands. That soprano belonged to my father and he bought it new in 1952 here in Sweden.
 

arock

Member
Messages
110
If it were an Orsi, it would only have the serial number by the thumbhook, it wouldn't even say "made in italy". If it is stamped made in holland, then in my opinion cannot be an Orsi, I've never heard of a stencil-stencilled sax!
M.
So if Keilwerth sold a bunch of tubes to Schenkelaars and Schekenlaars put their keys on them, for La Monte to sell to the public, you would call that a Keilwerth stencil? If I buy parts from a hardware store and build things for you, then you take these things, put your name on them and sell them on the open market, the name of the hardware store would mean nothing.
Just my take on it. Maybe Keilwerth was changing its design and liquidated some over stock. Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about. :shrug:
 

kevgermany

ex Landrover Nut
Subscriber
Messages
21,947
If you're lucky and have a Keilwerth body, you have fantastic sound and intonation, with maybe average keywork. I'm not sure if this would be stamped made in Holland, though. Really needs one to one comparison as I said before. And as keywork is the primary way of identifying saxes that aren't clearly stamped with a maker's name, you may find things difficult.
 

thomsax

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,807
So if Keilwerth sold a bunch of tubes to Schenkelaars and Schekenlaars put their keys on them, for La Monte to sell to the public, you would call that a Keilwerth stencil? If I buy parts from a hardware store and build things for you, then you take these things, put your name on them and sell them on the open market, the name of the hardware store would mean nothing.
Just my take on it. Maybe Keilwerth was changing its design and liquidated some over stock. Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about. :shrug:
The saxophone world is complicated. Keilwerth made tubes for the German firm Dörfler & Jörka and they did thier own keys and stamped the sax with a brand. Is it a Keilwerth stencil or a Döfler & Jörka stencil? D&J did thier own tubes as well and that makes it easier!?!?! But I've have seen a SML stencil on internet that Döfler & Jörka made. Maybe it had a Keilwerth body .... ???

For some years ago I E-mailed Gerhard Keilwerth, Nauheim about my "Keilwerths". He confirmed that the saxes were more or less Keilwerth, Nauheim products. But you can never be sure.

In the stencil world the buying firm got what they paid for. Martin, Elkhart made a very good stencil (Super) for Olds company. Not from old tooling or inventory. When it came to secondline saxes they were sold as less expensive alternative. Often made from old inventory and it was a way to extend the lifecycle of the tools. These saxes had bigger tolerances and they did less quality control as well. There could be some very good secondline saxes but sometimes the bad ones also "hit the market".
 
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