Saxophones Replacement alto neck is sharp

[jbtsax]

So this means that if your octaves are not in tune then a smaller bore will sharpen them and a wider bore will flatten them?

A smaller or larger bore can have the same taper and behave the same acoustically although the larger bore can be played at a louder dynamic level. It is when one end changes and the other remains fixed that the amount of taper changes. For example if the large end stays the same and the small end gets wider there is less conicity and the octaves will be wider. If the large end stays the same and the small end gets smaller there is more conicity and the octaves will be more narrow.

I had a Buescher True Tone alto that was very sharp in the second octave G and above. I sent it to Mark Aaronsen who cut a narrow "V" shaped section out of the end of the neck and then silver soldered it back together. It wasn't perfect, but narrowing the small end made the sax playable with that neck.

 

[jbtsax]

Some useful threads:

Intonation Tendencies and Sax Bore Design - Cafesax

I have got quite a collection of saxes, vintage through to modern but I don't understand why diferent saxes seem to have such different tuning tendencies when I play them. I have just bought from Milandro a lovely Mauriat alto - great tone and nice action. But when I blow it with a variety...

cafesaxophone.com

Intonation In the Upper Register - CafeSaxophone Forum

Is there a physical issue that could cause a modern alto to be remarkably sharp in the upper register, from high A upwards? Or possibly to make the instrument increasingly sharp as you go up the register so that there's something like 40-50 cents difference between the lower and the upper end?

cafesaxophone.com

Thank you Pete. Obviously I have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I also find it interesting to think of the mouthpiece chamber as part of the instrument and not as a separate thing.

Theoretically you could make a saxophone that doesn't have a separate mouthpiece ie neck just ends with a "window" on one side and the reed attaches to that. It could be that this is acoustically better and the only reason Adolphe didn't do it is because it's easier to manufacture a separate mouthpiece.

I'd happily bet he made it a two part instrument (horn + mouthpiece) purely so people with more money than sense could keep buying different mouthpieces to satisfy their need to keep buying stuff (at Ye Olde Gasse Shoppe).

I'm sure there have been trumpets with an integral mouthpiece, why not a saxophone?

We have the perfect analogy of course. At some time in the nineteenth century somebody thought "Hang on a minute, why do we have a horse and a carriage? Couldn't we just have a horseless carriage?"

"Nein, Herr Benz." they all said "Eine pferdelose Kutsche! Wie geht es weiter? bewegende Bilder?

 

[jonf]

Ich wusste nicht, dass du Deutsch sprichst @Pete Thomas

 

[Pete Thomas]

Ich wusste nicht, dass du Deutsch sprichst @Pete Thomas

I don't speak German, I was just literally quoting what they said to Herr Benz. Otherwise it would have been against the forum rules to only post in English.

 

[ferguscullen]

Everything @jbtsax said, above. One cannot just buy a non-original neck and worry solely about how the tenon fits. There are a lot of specifications to a neck which come into play to get it to match to a particular body. Length, bore, taper of the tube, octave pip location to name a few.

Watch this vid, it explains a lot:

View: https://youtu.be/k1d3ACFPGzU

Using this test, if one neck blows higher pitch than another does it mean that you'll play sharp if you use this neck?

 

[ferguscullen]

You might try placing the mouthpiece on the cork and adjusting your embouchure so that the mouthpiece + neck plays an Ab concert (F2 on the sax) and then see what the tuning is.

I have one neck that blows concert A and one that blows concert Ab with the same embouchure/mouthpiece/reed

 

[Saxamofone]

So this means that if your octaves are not in tune then a smaller bore will sharpen them and a wider bore will flatten them?

Not the size of the bore ... the amount of taper. The greater the taper, the flatter the short tube notes (all toneholes open) compared to the long tube notes (all tone holes closed). Less taper (the extreme of less taper would be a cylinder like a clarinet) and the sharper the short tube notes compared to the long tube notes.

If you started out with an alto sax that plays in tune top to bottom and then bored out the small end of the neck to make it larger just towards that end (less taper), the highest notes will get sharper compared to the low notes ... if you filled in the small end of the neck to make it smaller at that end (more taper), the highest notes would get flatter compared to the low notes.

 

[ferguscullen]

Not the size of the bore ... the amount of taper. The greater the taper, the flatter the short tube notes (all toneholes open) compared to the long tube notes (all tone holes closed). Less taper (the extreme of less taper would be a cylinder like a clarinet) and the sharper the short tube notes compared to the long tube notes.

If you started out with an alto sax that plays in tune top to bottom and then bored out the small end of the neck to make it larger just towards that end (less taper), the highest notes will get sharper compared to the low notes ... if you filled in the small end of the neck to make it smaller at that end (more taper), the highest notes would get flatter compared to the low notes.

Yes, I meant taper actually. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Targa]

I also find it interesting to think of the mouthpiece chamber as part of the instrument and not as a separate thing.

Theoretically you could make a saxophone that doesn't have a separate mouthpiece ie neck just ends with a "window" on one side and the reed attaches to that. It could be that this is acoustically better and the only reason Adolphe didn't do it is because it's easier to manufacture a separate mouthpiece.

I'd happily bet he made it a two part instrument (horn + mouthpiece) purely so people with more money than sense could keep buying different mouthpieces to satisfy their need to keep buying stuff (at Ye Olde Gasse Shoppe).

I'm sure there have been trumpets with an integral mouthpiece, why not a saxophone?

We have the perfect analogy of course. At some time in the nineteenth century somebody thought "Hang on a minute, why do we have a horse and a carriage? Couldn't we just have a horseless carriage?"

"Nein, Herr Benz." they all said "Eine pferdelose Kutsche! Wie geht es weiter? bewegende Bilder?

The first 'horseless carriages' were steam driven and even electric before Benz invented his.

 

[turf3]

A smaller or larger bore can have the same taper and behave the same acoustically although the larger bore can be played at a louder dynamic level. It is when one end changes and the other remains fixed that the amount of taper changes. For example if the large end stays the same and the small end gets wider there is less conicity and the octaves will be wider. If the large end stays the same and the small end gets smaller there is more conicity and the octaves will be more narrow.

I had a Buescher True Tone alto that was very sharp in the second octave G and above. I sent it to Mark Aaronsen who cut a narrow "V" shaped section out of the end of the neck and then silver soldered it back together. It wasn't perfect, but narrowing the small end made the sax playable with that neck.

Rather than cutting and resoldering the neck, why not just put a liner?

 

[thomsax]

I also find it interesting to think of the mouthpiece chamber as part of the instrument and not as a separate thing.

Theoretically you could make a saxophone that doesn't have a separate mouthpiece ie neck just ends with a "window" on one side and the reed attaches to that. It could be that this is acoustically better and the only reason Adolphe didn't do it is because it's easier to manufacture a separate mouthpiece.

I'd happily bet he made it a two part instrument (horn + mouthpiece) purely so people with more money than sense could keep buying different mouthpieces to satisfy their need to keep buying stuff (at Ye Olde Gasse Shoppe).

I'm sure there have been trumpets with an integral mouthpiece, why not a saxophone?

We have the perfect analogy of course. At some time in the nineteenth century somebody thought "Hang on a minute, why do we have a horse and a carriage? Couldn't we just have a horseless carriage?"

"Nein, Herr Benz." they all said "Eine pferdelose Kutsche! Wie geht es weiter? bewegende Bilder?

I think the mouthpice is a part of the saxophone. When a saxplayer is looking for a new mouthpiece I use to reccomend she/him to have a look at the mouthpiece that came along with the when it was new. Of course if it's an old sax you must first have it factory set-up.

I'm not sure if an integral mouthpice is the right way to go. But a better (micro)tuner on the neck. From microtuner to the end of the bell should be one piece. No joints that can leak, A sax with better efficiency!!

The design of the tube can also be custom made. Rolled toneholes, broader tonehols rims, tapered toneholes,

I was told that it's possible to designed saxes more to the players taste . The saxophone manufactors need to buy new tools and machines. And they are going to be expensive.