Tech/maintenance Alfredo Santoni Bari Sax

picconose · Feb 5, 2011

I was thinking this might be a stencil horn, but now that I have taken photos, believe it is not.
What do the rest of you think? Incidentally, it is a great horn for marching band - plenty loud and with good projection - but not too good for concert band, because it cannot be played softly below a low G. It has no leaks, fairly new pads, is in good regulation, and has only one very small dent on the back side, a couple of inches below the thumb hook. I believe it is just a poorly made instrument, though it looks OK on the surface.

kevgermany · Feb 6, 2011

I like the looks of this!. Hopefully Milandro stops by, he knows a lot about Italian saxes.
For what it's worth, the Giglio on the bell is Italian for lily.

milandro · Mar 14, 2011

Fear not the mighty Milandro is here! 🙂 ............I read Alfredo Santoni (why Antonio?) on the bell .......Giglio Parè (Como). This is one of the most mysterious Italian brands , apparently , according to some sources they are still active in Parè a small town near Como
http://utenti.multimania.it/cimbasso/mak.htm#S
but I cannot find it on the italian telephone directory either
http://lombardia.paginegialle.it/lombardia/co/strumenti_musicali.html
so maybe they did work there or they were integrated in the Bulgheroni woodwinds company of the same town.

Anyway, due to their close location to Quarna sotto this could easily have been a stencil of Rampone& Cazzani, Alfonso Rampone or even Grassi, but I don't know for sure about it.

Taz · Mar 14, 2011

There are some very slight similarities to my Dearman, which was identified as a Rampone and Cazzani stencil. Namely the Art Decco engraving and also the bell support. I think it's a fair bit younger than my dearman as the key guards are wire on mine. I'd take some nice clear pictures of it and then email the company. That's what I did and I was very pleased with the results!

gladsaxisme · Mar 15, 2011

milandro said:
Fear not the mighty Milandro is here! 🙂 ............I read Alfredo Santoni (why Antonio?) on the bell .......Giglio Parè (Como). This is one of the most mysterious Italian brands , apparently , according to some sources they are still active in Parè a small town near Como
http://utenti.multimania.it/cimbasso/mak.htm#S
but I cannot find it on the italian telephone directory either
http://lombardia.paginegialle.it/lombardia/co/strumenti_musicali.html
so maybe they did work there or they were integrated in the Bulgheroni woodwinds company of the same town.

Anyway, due to their close location to Quarna sotto this could easily have been a stencil of Rampone& Cazzani, Alfonso Rampone or even Grassi, but I don't know for sure about it.

Hi milandro

I would be very interested to find out what you know about Alfonso Rampone saxes as I believe I own one of there stencil horns called LINDELL....john

milandro · Mar 15, 2011

Well, I know very little about Alonso Rampone other than he was a maker who had a factory in Quarna sotto (same place where Rampone & Cazzani and Grassi had a factory) and stencilled lots horns under very many different names. His horns have been often mistaken for Malerne horns and who knows what the connection id there and if there was one.

picconose · Mar 29, 2011

Update: First of, let me say it is Alfredo, not Antonio Santoni - don't know what hepperned there - probably a senior moment. LOL

Anywho-how -I decided to mess around a bit with some mouthpiece/reed combinations, and made the interesting discovery that the metal Link 7* mouthpiece I have been using for the past twenty years or so seems to be a problem with this particular horn. They just do not get along well with one another. Out of curiousity, I stuffed a Rico Metalite M5 on the horn, with a fresh-out-of-the-box La Voz "soft" reed, and discovered that combination is the answer. I can play the full range of the horn with a subtone using that combination, and fortissimo passages speak readily, with no tendency to chirping and no intonation problems. I have concluded the old story of matching the mouthpiece and reed to the horn and to my oral cavity is crucial. Why I never thought of that before is beyond me. I have been preaching that to my students for years. DOH!

So now, all I have to do is figure out a way to alter the right hand thumb rest, to set it opposite the right hand forefinger. That is going to be a bit of a problem, because it is hard up against the bottom of the alternate F# tone hole. I am thinking I may get a baritone horn or tuba thumb ring, and make a mount for it to sit above the F# tone hole. As it is, the thumb rest is opposite my right hand second finger. After about 1/2 hour or forty minutes of playing, my right hand is more painful and cramped than it gets even from playing a clarinet. (Many years ago, I turned the thumb rest on my clarinet upside down, to raise the thumb position and get it more nearly opposite my forefinger. I have never understood why clarinets are designed with such eggregious ergonomics.)

tzadik · Apr 29, 2012

Re: Antonio Santoni Bari Sax

It looks like many other instrument made in Italy in the 70's
That horns looks like an Orsi baritone sax.

The history of saxphones production in Italy is very "strange"... as italian history.
Many things happened in the early 90's.

milandro · Apr 29, 2012

Re: Antonio Santoni Bari Sax

I disagree of this being an Orsi.

Santoni Parè is the most mysterious of the Italian brands (along with Desidera that you, Tzadik, seen that you are in Friuli could know better than anyone else!) and apparently they made their own stuff.
anyway the keyguards and brace are different from Orsi keyguards.

tzadik · Apr 29, 2012

Re: Antonio Santoni Bari Sax

Everything is related with type of saxophones production, here in Italy... that it was not so different from how saxophones are made in Taiwan.
Italian hand craft instruments (like R&Cs) are a recent story... starting from early 90's.

Have a look at this: Deadlink Removed

milandro · Apr 29, 2012

Re: Antonio Santoni Bari Sax

yes, exactly that one in your second post is very clearly an Orsi (the bell to body brace is typical of thei mre expensive models stencilled for countless of brands) , like one of the two I gave you a picture of and very different from the Santoni at the top of the page.

I am very familiar with Italian horns with me being Italian and trading failry regularly in vintage horns.

tzadik · Apr 29, 2012

Re: Antonio Santoni Bari Sax

Probably the ad you attached is of a earlier version of the Orsi bari than the one in the link I've posted.

milandro · Apr 29, 2012

Re: Antonio Santoni Bari Sax

the one you posted is the same type of the one on the left in the catalogue page ( Orsi horns with the lower keys on the left side were of an older design and were at a certain stage called their student model ) BUT with the bell to body brace of the model on the right (Orsi used these bell-body brace for their best models of altos, tenors,baritones, bass and contrabass (not for the curved soprano and sopranino) and until few years ago when they practically ceased production ).

Anyway if you look at the keyguards you will see that they are similar to the Santoni but yet different.

Santoni horns are very particular and show up rather often despite their relative rarity. They look remarkably like Malerne saxophones and show incredible similarities with Alfonso Rampone (NOT Rampone & Cazzani) saxophones.

they are so mysterious that there is no trace of them even on the site of “ the Strumenti Musicali Italiani a fiato “ where I am a member

Since you seem to be acquainted with my friend Claudio Zolla, ask him, he normally knows a lot about these things.

this is a link to a Santoni alto on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-PARE-Alto-Saxophone-SAX-Case-MADE-ITALY-/120540811212#ht_1037wt_1187

see how similar a Malerne some keys are!

tzadik · Apr 29, 2012

Re: Antonio Santoni Bari Sax

The keyguard can change. 😉
It'll be interesting to verify if those instruments has the same body/bore... I guess they'll can be pretty similar.

I think a small but very important part of the history of the saxophone production... is still secret. And it'll remain many and many years yet.

The horn in the eBay auction seems again different. It has some similarities with a Buescher Aristocrat alto.

milandro · Apr 29, 2012

Re: Antonio Santoni Bari Sax

yes, but Quarna, is closer to Paré-Como than Milan.......and for Mr.Alfredo Santoni would have been very logical to go to Quarna ( the Italian Elkhart with 3 major saxophone companies Alfonso Rampone, Rampone & Cazzani and Grassi rather than going to Milan, which, yes, is close too......