Advancing in mouthpiece size

shaftroo

New Member
Hello! I've been playing soprano saxophone for a year and bought a tenor 6 months ago. And I was so surprised of how easy it is to play saxophone coming from soprano 🙂 now I play the tenor 4-5 hours every day.
So
I bought the horn with a Yamaha 4C mouthpiece. Vandoren Java 2 1/2 seemed too easy and then I got Java 3. I played on this setup for 6 months and it got very very easy, up and down the horn with altissimo, the whole package. I wasn't very excited about the sound of the mouthpiece. Someone gave me a Selmer S80 C** to try and I liked it soooo much, ( I couldn't keep it because the diameter on it was much smaller than my cork, and I don't want to sand the cork to that size, because then I can only fit Selmer mouthpieces on the neck. I did this on soprano, but there I have 2 necks. One Is for Selmer and the other for any other mouthpiece 🙂 ) It made a huge difference. I could hear and feel the quality of it. Then I decided to advance to a decent mouthpiece. And bought 2 of them to try. A Vandoren V16 T6 and a DAddario Select Jazz D7M or Tenor 7.
Now my predicament
The DAddario is PHENOMENAL. It sounds like a dream come true! Very easy to blow, the low notes are a breeze. I can sing them so quiet and so loud. BUT. It is so tough on my embouchure. After playing on it for 30 minutes I feel like I did push ups with my lips. I am constantly aware not to squeeze, or tighten the embouchure, but it requires a bit more effort that the 4C I was used to. I only play up to first F with the octave key, because that is the point I fount that I have the tendency to squeeze and change my embouchure to go higher, and I don't want that bad habit. I switched to Java 2 1/2 and it is manageable. The Vandoren T6 is a bit easier to play, since it is a bit more closed than the other one, but still, the mouth push up experience is present.
Now my question
Should I press on and be patient? Will it become easier? Is this how you advance to a bigger mouthpiece? Just take it and start training on it until it becomes easy, or play on a smaller one for a long time, and then finally when you get a size 6 or 7 mouthpiece you can just blow effortlessly?

Thank you for reading so far 🙂

Have a great day and hope to hear your suggestions!
 
First, the sop embroschure is tough for tenor and alto players.

You seem to have that down. I wonder if you are using a sop embroschure on tenor.

Put more beak in your mouth and relax the corners of your mouth a bit.

I dont know that the piece is too big...you may be working far too hard coming from sop.

It is however a large jump from a 4C to a 7 but you are not using heavy reeds. You can experiment with a 2 reed and see what happens.

My hunch is still in the approach. However, that is pure speculation on my part.
Also the 4c and the DAd are significantly different beak shapes if I recall correctly? I might not 🙂
 
@shaftroo every size of mouthpiece (by that I mean soprano, alto, tenor etc.) requires a different use of the embouchure's musculature. I agree with @Phil that your approach may be an issue, especially coming from a 4C or C** which are so very much easier to play than a #7. The leap from the 4C, which is very much designed as a beginners mouthpiece, to the D7M is a big one.

I play a great deal of soprano, which is perceived as requiring more strength, but I actually find tenor more demanding if I haven't been playing it much. This is because the tenor's embouchure requires you to be more open and less compressed than soprano - but this approach needs much more inherent strength in the muscles, to resist biting and closing up the reed on the mouthpiece.

Aside from advising you to take it easy and allow yourself time to develop your tenor muscles more slowly, I suggest you try the D'Addario tenor D6M which is still very much the same sound as the D7M but a tad smaller at the tip and easier to blow (and preferable IMO to the V16 T6 which I find a little shallow in tone).

The 'mouth-push-up-experience' is just weakness in you embouchure, which is only to be expected and can only be developed properly with practice. I still suffer from 'mouth-push-up-experience' on occasions and I've been playing for nearly 50 years!

Good luck!
 
Maybe so David, but when it comes down to it...Soprano is evil...but not as evil as flutes (flutes are for masochists). Im convinced that to sound good on one you have to defy the laws of physics. I also resent the fact that they dont need mouthpieces 🙂

But I do agree with your advice!
 
Soprano is a different animal to be sure, and I know a lot of players think it's 'evil' because of the extra pressure needed to play it in tune.
I studied oboe as my main instrument at music college, and the soprano has many similarities to the oboe because of the conical bore; to me it's more natural than alto.
 
As noted by the other gents....you went for too big a tip opening jump between the Yama/Selmer (both of which are relatively small opening 'pieces) and your new mouthpieces, primarily.

You can woodhsed with 'em to get 'em to work, the fatigue will diminish....

You could, as David notes, buy yet another mouthpiece as a 'bridge' between your former and your current...if you wanna spend that $. (Do either of the new mouthpieces have a return/exchange policy ? Maybe exchange one back for one with a tip opening one size down ?)
 
Do you mean pressure on the reed?
Yes, that's what I mean. To someone who has played mostly tenor, the optimum soprano embouchure feels like a lot more pressure. It stands to reason, since the leverage of the embouchure upon the reed is so much smaller on soprano, and to achieve the full range of the instrument in-tune, a reed with greater support for higher pitches is required.
That said, I can happily play a Vandoren classical reed (Blue Box, V21 etc.) in a 2.5 strength on my classical mouthpieces without much bother, although a #3 is preferable. It's not just a matter of pressure, it's how the air is directed and delivered which involves the entire vocal tract.
Having spent so much time playing soprano, as I mentioned, if I am not careful I can end up approaching alto and tenor with the wrong voicing.
 
I just put my tenor aside and concentrate on soprano for the next few month to get a better grip on soprano. While I find soprano not as difficult as others say, I still feel it is worth dedicating my full attention to it for the moment. Having said that, I pulled out my tenor last week after 6 weeks exclusively on soprano and was surprised how demanding the tenor appeared to be. While previously I was able to pratice 1,5 h on tenor (if concentration allowed) suddenly my embouchure was gone after 45 min. Obviously soprano and tenor require different muscles to a different degree. And as David mentioned it is also about air stream.

Give yourself time to adjust to the new mouthpiece.

Alphorn
 
Thank you all for your reply's!

It's been almost 3 weeks since my mouthpiece upgrade, and I can see improvement every day. I can go up to palm key C without changing lip embouchure, only the "internal embouchure". Focused on not engaging any face muscles that don't need to be engaged. Fatigue has gone down, being able to play 1 and a half to two hours with just 2-3 minutes of rest in between. I learned to stop before it gets to THAT point, where i blow air through the sides of my mouth, and can't feel my bottom lip for 10 minutes after. I pushed through this point last Friday, and saturday morning was almost unable to play, having a really weak, shaky tone.
A real breakthrough came 2 days ago when I remembered the "breathe with your back" technique I saw in a Dave Liebman "masterclass" on youtube. Basically not expanding only your belly, but feeling the whole circumference of your rib cage and waist expanding. I took a breath like this and the mouthpiece exploded with a beautiful tone, like Coltrane and Brecker had a child together 🙂) Focusing on this these days. Propper breath support, and no half-breaths. It's been really helpful.
I left the D7M in the box for now. Only playing the V16 T6. When i placed the order, I got 3 mouthpieces. One I sent back, and waiting for them to receive the parcel and make the refund so I can buy a new one. I'm going for the D6M or the Vandoren Java T55 Jumbo ( it has a shorter facing length and a smaller tip opening (0.10mm difference) but i heard that it is like a mouth cannon.)

My java 2.5 green box reeds have started to soften from 3 weeks of playing, and with all the getting used to the new mouthpiece, i'm having a very good time with the horn 🙂 Feeling growth everyday, and enjoying the process.

Thank you for letting me know that what I am going through is normal, and it takes time to get used to!
 
Thank you all for your reply's!

It's been almost 3 weeks since my mouthpiece upgrade, and I can see improvement every day. I can go up to palm key C without changing lip embouchure, only the "internal embouchure". Focused on not engaging any face muscles that don't need to be engaged. Fatigue has gone down, being able to play 1 and a half to two hours with just 2-3 minutes of rest in between. I learned to stop before it gets to THAT point, where i blow air through the sides of my mouth, and can't feel my bottom lip for 10 minutes after. I pushed through this point last Friday, and saturday morning was almost unable to play, having a really weak, shaky tone.
A real breakthrough came 2 days ago when I remembered the "breathe with your back" technique I saw in a Dave Liebman "masterclass" on youtube. Basically not expanding only your belly, but feeling the whole circumference of your rib cage and waist expanding. I took a breath like this and the mouthpiece exploded with a beautiful tone, like Coltrane and Brecker had a child together 🙂) Focusing on this these days. Propper breath support, and no half-breaths. It's been really helpful.
I left the D7M in the box for now. Only playing the V16 T6. When i placed the order, I got 3 mouthpieces. One I sent back, and waiting for them to receive the parcel and make the refund so I can buy a new one. I'm going for the D6M or the Vandoren Java T55 Jumbo ( it has a shorter facing length and a smaller tip opening (0.10mm difference) but i heard that it is like a mouth cannon.)

My java 2.5 green box reeds have started to soften from 3 weeks of playing, and with all the getting used to the new mouthpiece, i'm having a very good time with the horn 🙂 Feeling growth everyday, and enjoying the process.

Thank you for letting me know that what I am going through is normal, and it takes time to get used to!

Palm key C? I presume you are referring to Concert pitch? So palm key D in relation to the Bb saxes...

Greg S.
 
Yes, palm D. I play jazz guitar for 16 years, and have a lot of sheet music, so i learned saxophone in concert pitch. I find it easier to manage and I transpose only when I read from saxophone books.
The V16 T6 mouthpiece is being tamed as we speak. 🙂 it's going really well. Doing an hour of long tones every day and I began getting the hang of it. I find it being much more expressive than the 4C. Yay!
 
Shaftroo
Any update please? (I'm just beginning the same journey: Started on Sop, added Tenor with 4C, found Tenor with 4C very easy compared with Sop, have V16 T6 on order arriving in a few days).

Clive
 
I think it's important not to think of getting a bigger tip size as necessarily advancing.

Same goes for reed hardness.

This is huge myth that as you advance and become a higher level player you need to get "bigger" "harder" equipment.

I'm also wary of the word "upgrade" - it's often a marketing term meaning "pay more more for something I don't really need"
 
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Pete Thomas gave you great advice. I would suggest that you read it sixty-one times.
I just finished a three hour Mardi Gras party. I perform 60% tenor and 40% on soprano. Practicing or doodling for 4-5 hours is ok, but performing full compositions is a completely different monster.
Read Pete's post one more time.
 
Vandoren V16 T6 arrived today. Surprisingly, I found it somewhat easier to play than the 4C. I tried Rico Royal reeds from 1.5 to 2.5 and have settled on 2.0. Played for an hour with lots of long tones and low notes and smoothly up to front F and down to B flat, legato and staccato, with and without vibrato. All in tune (+-5cents) on Tuner. My wife commented, "a huge difference" when playing "Georgia on my mind" so I'm happy with the dynamic expressiveness particularly. I only play slow romantic ballads for the enjoyment of my wife and I.

I think I'll be happy with the V16 T6 until I get a Theo Wanne Nirvana. 😉

Clive
 

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