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Beginner Saxophone won’t keep its regulation

eb424

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I've been getting a little frustrated lately.....yeah that way to..lol.. in all honesty i have just (8 months) switched from the alto over to the tenor. I have Hansons series V1111 and it hs been driving me mad, i think i must have been driving Alastair potty with all the phone calls. I love the look of my sax but have always thought that it didn't play right and had to much resistance. The low notes have been difficult but but not that bad its been unplayable and i have put this down to me, the reeds or the mouthpiece.

Anyhoo after lots of searching i have found both but was still not 100% and felt i was losing confidence in the sax. I have a series 6 Alto from Alastair and it got to the point that i just wanted to send mine back and try the series 6. However this has not been as easy as it should be and in n ideal world i would haveliked to keep my sax but have confidence in it.

I had the sax looked t by Dawkes and when i got home it was like playing a different instrument, low C easier, and the warble had gone.. a week later it was back to normal. I had to go and take and old Buescher (i know i always spell it wrong Jeanette) for a quote for repadding and asked the tech to have a look at my hansons which he did and adjusted the regulation..

. I had an oppurtunity when i got home to play for a few hours and wow... the sax really showed me her capabilities, a few squeeks, but the tone and everything sounded so much nearer what i expected and i KNEW any mistakes were mine; i can and will work on that.

My longwinded question is why the sax wont hold regulation and if there is anything that can be done to address the issue, aside from pushing Alastair for the series 6. I feel that we have been on a journey and would ideally love to keep the sax I have as like the way she looks and plays when regulated.. Any advice seriously welcome all i want to do is pick up the sax set up and know any mistakes are mine so I can get on with learning in confidence...
 
OK, well I would say if this situation repeats itself again....return the horn.

It's certainly possible for a sax to not hold its regulation or start leaking after initially it is serviced to not leak; this can be due to soft keys which, when adjusted/bent, do not hold their new position. It can also be caused by bad, cheap regulating materials which, well...are bad, cheap regulating materials.
It could be cheap pads, which fail to keep their seat.
It could be badly installed pads, which were factory-pressure seated but with insufficient substrate (glue/shellac).
It could be due to unlevel toneholes (factory problem)

....Just a few suspects off the top of my head.

So it's possible the horn initially arrived already out of adjustment/leaking.
It's possible that tech #1 took care of a few priority adjustments but not everything...then tech #2 nailed everything...so you will be good to go.

Or it's possible the horn left the seller in good regulation but by time it got to you it was out of regulation.
Tech #1 put it back into regulation and resolved all the issues, but the issues re-appeared after a few plays.
Tech #2 put it back into regulation and it is holding for time-being ...but will go out or start leaking once again....

Which would be a bummer.,....Good luck, keep us posted on this.

... all i want to do is pick up the sax set up and know any mistakes are mine so I can get on with learning in confidence...
Indeedy. Anyone who buys a new horn should be buying this sort of guarantee and not have to preoccupy themselves with what you are dealing with. Definitely takes the fun out of it.
 
Would upload a pic but don't know how..Hanson's had a good rep and my alto has been great... I noticed one of the long rods wasn't sitting on top of the pillar when I pushed it the top pads closed a bit. I held it in place with a bread packet tie and it seems to play. I haven't been able to play so quietly before. It looks like the rod is bent.. trouble is the top of the pillar has a horseshoe rest it would be better with an eye. Might need a new rod or taken apart and straightened. I'll try Alastair Hanson again 're solution but can at least practice.
 
Everything JayeNM wrote is "spot on". In my experience on new saxes just out of the box and those that have just been overhauled there is a "break in" period even when the best and most stable regulating materials are used. A saxophone is a complex piece of machinery with lots of key relationships and things will move a bit as the saxophone is "played in". I encourage customers whose saxes I have repadded or overhauled to bring it back in 30 days so I can check the reliability of my work and tweak any things that need tweaking. ;)

Dealers who don't know better sometimes do things that don't help. One of those is to remove the corks and wedges holding the keys closed for transport and then immediately adjusting and regulating the sax before the "overly compressed" pads and materials have had a chance to "relax" and return to their original state. As you can imagine when they do relax, the adjustment and regulation can be worse than if no work had been done after it was unboxed. I know that at Cannonball headquarters, saxes are uncorked and left alone for a few weeks before the "regulators" even start to check them and make adjustments.

There are a few things players can do to help keep their sax in good adjustment:
  • Swab out the moisture every time you play.
  • Avoid using excess pressure closing the keys (gorilla grip).
  • Don't leave the instrument out of the case on a stand---especially where there are pets and children present.
  • Don't let the case get knocked or bumped with the sax inside since the case only keeps out the rain. It doesn't protect the keywork
  • Always use the endplug or "Padsaver" to protect the octave post at the top of the sax.
  • Don't "crank" or force the neck into the receiver and make sure the parts are kept shiny clean.
  • At the first sign of "resistance" take the sax in to be checked and/or serviced otherwise you will unconsciously use more finger pressure which can bend keys and make things worse.
 
Thanks Joe you think a bent rod would cause problems and what is the solution..I know I'll have to but fed up taking it to the tech...
 
Post a pic of what you are talking about regarding the rod sitting atop the pillar, etc, etc. It sounds like you may mean a key barrel of a long key (side E ? stack G ?) which is not resting in it's u-shaped post top (?)

Just look at the icon menu directly above where you type your replies. There is a photo icon; click on it, and you can upload a pic from your computer directly to the thread.
 
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Hi Thanks.. sorry that's the best I can do. That does sound right tho. I have tied it down with a bread bag tie. The rod has never sat in it's holder. Would it make a difference to the sound. With it tied down the sax plays different and I can play quietly it's always taken so much air. Thanks for the help btw. Eddie
 
Hi I've just checked and it's the rod with the g cup which operates the bid key. Bent out of alignment.. is it an easy fix..
 
I can't see a problem in the photo, but I may be missing something. The long rod of the G key is in the saddle although very slightly off center. Below the support saddle the rod has an arch which prevents the motion of the keys below it from making contact. On long rods such as this one it is not uncommon to see a slight side to side or up and down movement as the key is operated and the rod rotates. That just means it is not perfectly straight which does not prevent the key from working properly.
 
Reading through the posts, unless I'm missing it. you haven't done the simple thing of checking for leaks with fag papers or light?
 
I can't see a problem in the photo, but I may be missing something. The long rod of the G key is in the saddle although very slightly off center. Below the support saddle the rod has an arch which prevents the motion of the keys below it from making contact. On long rods such as this one it is not uncommon to see a slight side to side or up and down movement as the key is operated and the rod rotates. That just means it is not perfectly straight which does not prevent the key from working properly.
I agree. Looking at pic, there's nothing unusual, it is pretty common for a key barrel NOT to center on the post 'fork' (for lack of a better word) and to actually move laterally a bit when key is activated. I believe you (OP) were surmising that somehow the G was leaking when not 'wired down' at the post fork. A leaky G can cause a warble in the low notes. But as JBT notes, I don't think (if the G is leaking) it is because of its key barrel/post fork condition,
Might be because of, as you say the entire rod/barrel got slightly bent.

Try this - take off the bread tie, and when playing, push the G key down with a lot of force. Does the problem also go away when you do this ?

If so, then it's likely your G pad is leaking...so either the pad needs to be refloated, the hole leveled and pad refloated, the rod/barrel needs straightening, or...perhaps (but probably not) because something may have gotten knocked at some point, the armature at the top of the G key hitting the octave key mechanism armature (which foces the octave stem back towards the body, thus preventing neck key from opening when octave G is engaged) is preventing the G pad cup from closing entirely on its tonehole, thus creating a leak.
 
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Hi I've just checked and it's the rod with the g cup which operates the bid key. Bent out of alignment.. is it an easy fix..
 
All the pds are fine it was checked on Saturday but i struggled again when i got home nd played for few hours... When i take the wire off the rod springs out.. would it ffect the playing if the bar was bent. I know Alastir will sort it but if its a simple fix its better than a very long drive.. Thanks for all the advice
 
According to the photograph on Hanson's web-site it appears the rod is bent on purpose to work around the other parts of the saxophone keywork.
Yes exactly. @eb424 ...if the 'bent rod' you refer to is the section of the G rod below your bread tie which does a little angle swoop there...that is intentional and part of the design, apparently to clear the A key touch arm.
Just wanna make sure you aren't referring to that aspect.

I understand you say when the tie is off the rod moves higher and off of the post 'fork'. This could mean it is bent slightly, yes. Or not. Most long key rods do not actually touch the bottom of the post fork cradle, but hover above it a tad (still remaining between the fork arms however).
 
O come on give me a break here...lol you can clearly see the set ( I'm a plumber) designed to miss the touch arm.. My mate has the st8 and the rod is straight ( still has and needs the set) and sits within and actually touches the bottom of the fork. When i take the bread tie off mine sits above and outside the fork. All I was wondering was whether this is right...I wondered if hit while playing the g key moves as the arms don't prevent side ways movement. I haven't checked ( yet) whether the tie has bent it back. I know Alastair would sort it but it's a long drive if there's nothing wrong...which no one here seems to know; it's hard from photos i know..
 
The bend in the G key barrel could be the source of the recurring problems.

There's quite a bit of torque on that key in use, and if the barrel isn't quite straight it may have a tendency to deflect when you press the key down. Now, all keys will deflect/flex to some degree when pressed - but those that are mounted on point screws (such as the G key) will flex more than those keys that have a rod fitted through the barrel (such as your main stack keys).
A bend in the barrel may accentuate the flex, and this would lead to the key cup twisting when the pad is brought down against the tonehole...which in turn would lead to a leak.

It may also be the case that the bend in the key is caused by compression - because the pillars are too close together. This would make the key very unstable indeed.

Hanson's aren't especially noted for having soft keywork - certainly not soft enough to throw out the regulation in normal use - so I very much suspect there's another issue at the root of the problems that's been missed so far.
 

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