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A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name?

zannad

Member
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410
It's formed in this way:
2 1 1 1 2 1 3 1
So 8 steps in all - simply add a Major 3rd to an Harmonic Minor (or add a Minor 3rd to a Harmonic Major).
I have done a bit of search but still can't id this scale...any clue?
 

TomMapfumo

Well-Known Member
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5,219
Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

I think it will be quite hard to find a 9 note scale. When I entered a scale based on C (C D Eb E F G Ab B C) Google wanted to drop the E note. No luck so far!

Kind regards
Tom
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

I think it will be quite hard to find a 9 note scale. When I entered a scale based on C (C D Eb E F G Ab B C) Google wanted to drop the E note. No luck so far!

Kind regards
Tom
With all the scales available I find it difficult to believe this hasn't been identified - maybe it's hidden as a mode in some esoteric eastern scale.
I've found it while exercising with augmented 7th chords - take 2 +7th chords a 4th apart and basically you have this Harmonic Minor scale with the Major 3rd - it sounds interesting and on paper it should be very useful and versatile...anyhow; I like it and if none is going to claim it or I'll call it "Zannad's Scale" - :thumb: (though luck - someone's got to do it).
 

Pete Thomas

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Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

If you think about it, there could be thousands of scales with no names. But I like the idea of the Zannad scale.
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

If you think about it, there could be thousands of scales with no names. But I like the idea of the Zannad scale.
My provocation puts me in a win win situation...if no one can properly ID that scale I get my scale (in my head at least) - but expect the "I know better" poster coming with some detailed info - that way we'll know better - (myself included).
 

old git

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Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

If you think about it, there could be thousands of scales with no names. But I like the idea of the Zannad scale.
Do the scales drop from one's eyes?
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

Do the scales drop from one's eyes?
Look...right now (until it lasts), I have my own scale - if you can't kill it, just put up with it (will ya?).
What about an "Old Git" scale? Find it and claim it (as simple as that).

In fact I suggest opening a new thread:
CLAIM YOUR OWN SCALE
that way anyone who finds an interesting scale can name it - we would id all possible combination available in western music (at least) - then with eastern and microtunal systems the combinations might became near infinite...(but at least we tried).
 

old git

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Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

Did not mean to wind you up Zannyboy and don't sit on my knee either. >:)

Can I claim the Scales of Justice, please?
 

zannad

Member
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410
Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

Did not mean to wind you up Zannyboy and don't sit on my knee either. >:)

Can I claim the Scales of Justice, please?

Absolutely no winding up there...by now you should know that not all of my posts are that serious and there is a humorist if not provocative approach which is often misunderstood (at your own peril).
Someone out there is secretly criticizing my ballsy approach: "Wow, how does he dare to name his own scale?!", (they only wished they were in my position), LOL....you are just one of them; only, you got the balls to come and display your dis-sense; in a way - hat off to you for being honest ;}

Find the steps for the Scale of Justice and you are up and running (as long as these aren't in other known scales).
Still, none is challenging my steps....
 

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
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Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

Scales are a fishy subject.
I see the Zannad scale like a harmonic major with a passing note between 2 and 3.

I am trying to remember a mental book from the 80s with some mental scales and their harmonizations...
 

aldevis

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Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

Find the steps for the Scale of Justice and you are up and running (as long as these aren't in other known scales).
Still, none is challenging my steps....
Easy: half step up, whole step down.

The Scale of Economy is whole steps down
The Idiotic scale is up, up, up: let's have fun!
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

Easy: half step up, whole step down.

The Scale of Economy is whole steps down
The Idiotic scale is up, up, up: let's have fun!

To be totally honest with you....I wished someone come up with a proper label for that scale - or at least a reference to an existing mode (I didn't plan this thread to have a scale named after "Zannad"? An unidentified nickname?).
It would be most idiotic to push this scale forward unnecessarily - just for vanity.
If it works; if it really shows some musical usefulness backed up by some substance (some theory too?) then maybe - then once accepted globally a scale can be rightfully be named (this happens naturally - not because someone says so).
As it stands no one really bothered to dig cos' there is no real need for another "scale" - especially one with 8 steps.
The Harmonic Major is gaining more and more relevance - surely, isn't as established as the Harmonic Minor...but we can see some real gains in having the 2 fused together - by just adding 1 tone.
 

aldevis

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Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

The Harmonic Major is gaining more and more relevance - surely, isn't as established as the Harmonic Minor...but we can see some real gains in having the 2 fused together - by just adding 1 tone.
Since you are getting serious....

Harmonic major is quite common since Mozart (at least), It simply hasn't been formalized in schools.

And now the info that will change your life:
On the zannad scale, you have a chromatic passage; if the strong note is the m3, it is a minor harmonic with an approach on the 4th. If the strong note is the M3, it is a major harmonic with an approach on the M3.

Next step is the scale that was named "viral scale" by a friend in 1992.... 14 notes in an octave.... it is consonant.... It can be any known mode....
 

old git

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Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

If we returned to the Grand Clef and abandoned scales, all you need to be is be a good sight reader.

Add to this all teachers WOULD have to teach is the full chromatic range of the instrument, grammar and timing.

Just to wind our Kentish friend up, abandon the Böhm and adopt the Jim Schmidt fingering system.

Now doesn't the World look a better place.;}
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

Since you are getting serious....

Harmonic major is quite common since Mozart (at least), It simply hasn't been formalized in schools.

And now the info that will change your life:
On the zannad scale, you have a chromatic passage; if the strong note is the m3, it is a minor harmonic with an approach on the 4th. If the strong note is the M3, it is a major harmonic with an approach on the M3.

Next step is the scale that was named "viral scale" by a friend in 1992.... 14 notes in an octave.... it is consonant.... It can be any known mode....

If the strong note is the M3 the m3 doesn't lead to anything in particular (especially if played just after the M3) - let's say that the chord structure or the bass line is relevant in this case and both minor and major chords can be met swiftly by any scale/mode which incorporates the m3 and M3.

I guess this Viral scale made of 14 tones incorporated 2 variants of 3M and 3m, am I right? The shifty 3rds would help readdressing some problems related to the use of the equal temperament (practical music) and the natural overtone series (real music).
Then, aren't 12 tones enough already? (we tune the 3rds by ear as we play); one of the hidden function of a scale (in my view) is that it provides a handy set of tones which is easier to handle/memorize than a chromatic scale - 12 tones divide by 2 = 6...then the major scale has 7 tones - ok, just one more than the exact half of a chromatic scale but it appears that our brains do well in memorizing groups made of 7 items....
Then, as mostly common chords are made from 3/4 tones (about half the tones of a scale), can we see them as a shorthand for a scale?
See? all is structured to facilitate memory....it would be "simpler" to go the whole hog and learn the chromatic scale at once - but apparently our brains don't work very well when dealing with scales made of more than 7 tones.
 
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Pete Thomas

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Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

If the strong note is the M3 the m3 doesn't lead to anything in particular (especially if played just after the M3) - let's say that the chord structure or the bass line is relevant in this case and both minor and major chords can be met swiftly by any scale/mode which incorporates the m3 and M3.
In this case, I would view the m3 as a passing note, just as I would with the same note in a major blues scale. It can act as an approach or neighbour note also. There is nothing wrong about "adapting" existing scales by adding passing notes, e.g. the now famous bebop scale(s) which evolved by merely adding a passing note that helped the scales to be used in a jazz line which consisted of a scale or scale fragment and allowed the chord tones to fall on a strong beat. A very useful scale.
 

aldevis

Surrealist Contributor.
Cafe Moderator
Messages
12,125
Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

If the strong note is the M3 the m3 doesn't lead to anything in particular (especially if played just after the M3) - let's say that the chord structure or the bass line is relevant in this case and both minor and major chords can be met swiftly by any scale/mode which incorporates the m3 and M3.

I guess this Viral scale made of 14 tones incorporated 2 variants of 3M and 3m, am I right? The shifty 3rds would help readdressing some problems related to the use of the equal temperament (practical music) and the natural overtone series (real music).
The concept behind the viral scale is the dear old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bebop_scale

About strong notes...
CDEFGABCDCBAGFEDC (first note on the downbeat) sits comfortably on a CMaj chord
Same scale with the SECOND note on the downbeat sits on a Dm6 chord...
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

If we returned to the Grand Clef and abandoned scales, all you need to be is be a good sight reader.


Add to this all teachers WOULD have to teach is the full chromatic range of the instrument, grammar and timing.

Just to wind our Kentish friend up, abandon the Böhm and adopt the Jim Schmidt fingering system.

Now doesn't the World look a better place.;}
To master the chromatic scale we need light fastening brains and to own one of those JS saxes we need big bucks - it's better to make the most of what we have - after all, cheap musical instruments and 5 tones scales have entertained humanity for centuries...
 

zannad

Member
Messages
410
Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

This extract from that wiki reference about Bebop scales is interesting:
"The bebop harmonic minor scale is derived from the harmonic minor scale and has a chromatic passing tone (an additional ♭7) between the 6th and the 7th notes. It can be used on all three chords of a minor II-V-I progression".
Of course we can fit a chord by highlighting the modes within a given scale - but maybe, there is an instinctive urge to stay in the same scale and adding a few relevant tones instead = getting a bit closer to mastering the whole 12 tones (that's my urge anyhow).
I've never liked the idea of "passing tones" - these are simply tones which aren't fully established within a formal scale - these are tones which are kind of invading the tonal system step by step and aren't fully grown yet - the player can make the difference here - how, he/she is prepared to accept these extra tones as part of a scale or as mere invaders?!
 

old git

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Re: A scale made from the Harmonic Minor and the Harmonic Major...does it have a name

Surely the way to judge whether the "passing note" you seem to discourage is valid or not, should be judged by the "does it sound good" standard. That will, of course change over time, according to fashion.

The theory behind it is so that those who cannot hear or feel too timid to chance it, have a template to rely on.

I claim the Fibonacci scale. 12 tone but the first eight notes of the primary scale are not within homo sapiens' hearing range. Because the ratio between any two adjacent notes in the system are approximately the Golden Mean, it will sound or at least the ones you can hear, pleasant. There is a problem with using conventional clefs owing to the number of leger lines that can be printed at readable size on an A4 format. Just the number or the sequential number in the series is being considered.
 
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