PA & Amps A basic sound rig for visiting bands?

[mizmar]

I volenteer to help with a small festeval of world music here.
The organiser also gets occasional contacts from folks doing a tour, often with minimum kit above their instruments and clean underwear. These shows are small, low ticket sales etc. so costs have to be minimised for the musicians to see any cash. If sound equipment is required it's a substantial part of the costs; kit hire, delivery, and if a tec is required.... The local sound company are good chaps, but this is in the noise for them.

So, I was thinking of trying to define a basic, compact (I can pic up in a car) set of equipment; two powered speakers, mixer, mics, stands, cables, couple of monitors...
that we could either define with the company to rent or accumulate, which I could train myself (indeed, the company might help?) to setup and mix well enough for a small venue.

I'm tec savvy enough, and physics savvy; not a great pair of ears; but I can see doing front of house with a band member / tour manager... I'm reading lots and thinking of doing an online course just to get the basic ideas...

Is that silly? Just looking for a sanity check and if "not insane" kit suggestions, info source suggestions etc.

e.g. I was looking at basing this around something like the Behringer XR18 or Midas MR18 ... enough channels for a small group, and PC based mixing so everything can be on stage and front of house just depends on one ethernet cable or wifi - to simplify cabling.

thanks for any ideas.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Is that silly?

No.

The questions are:
How big is the room/venue?
Inside or outside?
Type of music?
Typical number of musicians?
Typical instruments?

Using a rack-mounted desk controlled with a pc/laptop/tablet/phone is pretty standard these days. A decent external router can give up to 300m line of sight range. Usually expect 100m with an external router, around 30m with the internal one.

IIRC Midas and Behringer 'desks' are made by the same people. Certain components on Midas desks are higher spec but whether you'll be able to tell through the speakers is a different matter.

If you know the basics of how compressors, EQ and reverb work then it shouldn't be a big challenge to get up and running.

 

[ellinas]

A Behringer XR18 can be as basic or as advanced as the guy behind the mixer or tablet or whatever they use to mix. You can do great things with it.
X32s are almost a budget standard for many many occasions around the globe. and the 18 is just a mini version of the 32.

 

[mizmar]

The questions are:
How big is the room/venue?
Inside or outside?
Type of music?
Typical number of musicians?
Typical instruments?

In a way, it's self limiting. The larger venues will be ticketed reliably, so not my problem here. The biggest will be a spot which isn't that big - 100 bodies or so. Otherwise this or that pub and one church hall. No outside (Norway) but maybe a large tent.

I reckon 2-7 musicians - there's a 7er coming next week which got me thinking about this; a couple of saxophones, a violin, Haitin drums and voices... And that's not unusual mix of loud and quiet - most are singing as well, so the voices need mics above the instruments. And there's the rub, appart from voices, ethnic instruments seem to me often quieter than modern western ones... I had a kora player last summer - with a pickup! - + Malawi drummers. We sorted him with a little, powered speaker; but it could have been better.

And people like to hybridise. So, a mixer with mics + inputs ...

 

[mizmar]

Monitors?

Not being a performer, that's actually the mystery to me. Given the above, would I need to have a monitor person? 3 or 4? Some no-name:cheap and cheerful IAM? What's a decent minimum?

 

[greenstripe]

You could always hire a few different rigs to get experience, a lot of systems have different features - not worth paying a lot of money for features that you won't use or buying something and then wishing you'd paid a bit more to have a missing feature.

Not really comparable - I once hired a setup to DJ a 70th Birthday party in a church hall in London for about 250 people in 2014- I found a company that could rent you pretty much whatever you needed including instruments to do a gig in your living room to playing a stadium. Perhaps you have something similar in your local area.

Below is invoice - I had 2 mics (one wireless), a fairly basic mixing desk, DI box (ground lift - most mixers have this built in these days or digital input), speakers and cables. I was extremely impressed with the sound quality and quite frankly could go way more than loud enough.

 

[Veggie Dave]

In a perfect world each instrument/percussion will have its own channel. So, sax would be one channel, percussionist with two congas would be two channels etc. There are ways to mic multiple instruments with one mic; techniques that will come in very handy sooner or later. Loads of videos out there showing different approaches.

Mic wise, the SM58 will give a decent sound with almost anything (good news when you don't have a big budget as they're relatively inexpensive and can do multiple jobs). There are instruments in your list, though, that may require more specific equipment.

Monitors use the AUX out from the desk. These can go to powered wedges/speakers or IEM - they all work in exactly the same way. With a digital desk, everyone in the band that has a modern phone or tablet can mix their own monitor mix using an App - no need for a separate monitor engineer. The number of AUX out dictates the number of separate/different monitor mixes. If you have more musicians than AUX outs then someone is going to have to share.

PA size. This is a big question. From what you're describing it doesn't sound like you need too much. A couple of 500w heads would probably do it. However, there's quite a big difference between a church, a pub and a tent even if they each hold the same number of people.

A good PA supplier will help here but I'd highly recommend using a calculator to get your basic requirements while also reading a few articles on how to size a PA for a given venue, music style and number of people. If you're going to speak to a supplier, it's always good to understand what they're talking about.

This is one of the calculators I've used recently:

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English

www.crownaudio.com

Lastly, you really should make certain that anything you buy will cost you less in the long run than hiring. It's nice having your own PA but if it's only getting used a few times a year then it's going to take quite a while to make the money back compared to hiring.

 

[mizmar]

Brilliant.

I'm not keen on buying till I know a lot more / have more experience. but hire costs are high, here, especially if manpower (Tec, transport) is required - so my first sweetspot is to agree an equipment set I can pick up and run with reliably.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Over here you can 'dry hire' pro kit, which can save a lot of money if you know how to use it. Throw in an engineer and the price goes up a lot - but then a good engineer is worth their weight in gold.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Not the fat ones.

 

[John Laughter]

how to size a PA

Pleeease go with 15 inch speakers for the mains.

 

[mizmar]

there's a 7er coming next week...

Got an email, yesterday, from the tec company, that they don't have crew to set up this lot, Tuesday, for a school show (midday) So that's dumped me in this issue sooner then I'd hoped.

the group's geeetarist said he's happy to mix from the stage, on an analog desk, I'll do rodi duties & pick up a van of kit...

but, yeah, it'll help, in the future if I can get ahead of the problem. Fun!

 

[Veggie Dave]

If I get the chance, I'll try and do a video of my band's set-up (we're a 7 piece, too), mixer, mics etc. when we rehearse on the 31st. It may be of help.

 

[mizmar]

Tuesday, for a school show (midday)

And so it begins!

Including a MkVI... So, legit for the Cafē.

 

[greenstripe]

Looks like a difficult space with lots of hard surfaces to reflect sound -I hope the wall behind you has some acoustic dampening.

Personal monitoring (headphones) is always a good option provided people are comfortable using them -not everyone gets in with them. They also can be used to protect your hearing.

 

[Vetinari]

That wiring is scary.

 

[spike]

Normal day at the office

 

[thomsax]

I think it all looks fine.

 

[Vetinari]

I would hang my head in shame if I had ever left a stage that untidy.

 

[mizmar]

I think it all looks fine.

Svenske spiller ög Haitian trummisar(?)
They sang Redemption Song

MAPOU – Haitian Drums and Northern Wind | Country and Eastern

World and Jazz Music

countryandeastern.se

I would hang my head in shame if I had ever left a stage that untidy.

Indeed. But it wasn't a stage. It was a side wall of a highschool dining cafeteria. A quick in and out. Anyway, sound went in, sound came out (only just, the Tec company forgot a jack -> XLR cable for the monitors. We found something. Everyday a learning experience). Job jobbed... Till this evenings second pub show.