9 add 9?

[jeremyjuicewah]

Well I just thought it would get your interest. Dont get connected in the new flat till Monday so cant pick up or post very often at the mo. Been delving into theory since I damaged my lip and had a good lesson yesterday but didnt understand it all. Best sometimes to let something go in order that the lesson moves along but I am still stuck with this, using C for the example:
C9 has a flattend 7th, as does C11, C13 etc. Why? What it there to tell me in C9 that the 7th is flattened? Or is it like Cminor, where I just know the 3rd is flat? And then, C add 9. I should know this but I get very confused. If add 9 is the D added to the C chord, why is C9 different to add 9?

Would also like to apologise to someone on here who asked about what the chords above a melody were for in terms of improv some time ago. I gave the most ignorant and uninformed answer. I now know better and even realise to some extent what I do not know. I hope the poor so and so took more notice of the more informed answers over mine.

But goodness, it is VERY interesting.
Best wishe
Mike

[aldevis]

C9 has a flattened 7th because it comes from a dominant chord when a tonic chord didn't use to have a 9th.
Cmaj9 has a major 7th
Cadd9 has NO 7th

But these are just conventions... C7#9 should actually be C7b10, but common practice wins.

I hope this helps

[Pete Thomas]

[QUOTE=jeremyjuicewah;62124
C9 has a flattend 7th, as does C11, C13 etc. Why? What it there to tell me in C9 that the 7th is flattened?[/QUOTE]

C9 has a flattened 7th because it comes from a dominant chord when a tonic chord didn't use to have a 9th.
Cmaj9 has a major 7th
Cadd9 has NO 7th

But these are just conventions... C7#9 should actually be C7b10, but common practice wins.

aldevis is spot on. It is just the way it is, not really logical, just convention.

If you think about it, it is just an extension of C7, there is nothing in the nomenclature of C7 to tell us the 7 is flattened, we rely on the modifier maj in a major 7 to differentiate.

This does confuse people who start of with classical theory, who might think of C E G B as chord I7

It'a all confusing until you get used the the conventions, e.g. common sense might make us think Cmin7 is a C chord (C E G) with a minor 7, but we know it's not, it's a Cminor chord with a (minor) 7.

[Young Col]

Yes that confusion isn't helped by the more traditional learning routes like ABRSM main grades where they are taught as dominant 7ths. Thus a C7 is learnt as a dominant 7th on F major. Same thing of course, but no mention of the (more common in jazz/pop) C7 notation.

However, the traditional way does give the answer. If you work it out as a dominant 7 in F major then it will have a flat B. If you take it as a tonic chord in C major, then it obviously it won't, hence CMaj7.

[tenorviol]

Yes that confusion isn't helped by the more traditional learning routes like ABRSM main grades where they are taught as dominant 7ths. Thus a C7 is learnt as a dominant 7th on F major. Same thing of course, but no mention of the (more common in jazz/pop) C7 notation.

However, the traditional way does give the answer. If you work it out as a dominant 7 in F major then it will have a flat B. If you take it as a tonic chord in C major, then it obviously it won't, hence CMaj7.

As someone who has 'gone the classical route' and therefore I'm used to notation like "I7" or "V7" it took me a while to realise that C7 meant "V7" in the terminology I was used to.... which is significant with regard to the 7th.

[jeremyjuicewah]

Thank you all. I will slug away at this until the lip heals then I am going to explore improv in practice. I never ever realised how neatly all this stuff goes together.
Cheers
Mike

[jeremyjuicewah]

Thanks again all. I have got through that now and I understand.
Mike